Should NATO send troops to help Ukraine?

Should NATO send troops to help Ukraine?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 22.7%

  • No

    Votes: 85 77.3%
  • Total voters
    110
SuperStu said:
I find all the analysis in the media saying he wants to recreate the USSR a bit unserious. Maybe I'm wrong, it just feels very similar to the "internet communism!" headlines at the last election. Scary word association propaganda.
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He has said it for years though he’s wrote essays on it and even called it the greatest distaster in the countries history.

It’s not unserious at all

it’s his burning ambition

his die ing wish if you will
 
SuperStu said:
I've just googled it. You're right of course, Russian troops in a "breakaway state". So it is quite similar to Ukraine afterall.
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There's a security pact among a number of prior Soviet states. Those that are aligned with Russia. There are Russian minorities in all these states as a result of intentional social engineering by Lenin and Stalin after the revolution in 1917. They wanted to dilute Russian power oddly enough.
 
SuperStu said:
I find all the analysis in the media saying he wants to recreate the USSR a bit unserious. Maybe I'm wrong, it just feels very similar to the "internet communism!" headlines at the last election. Scary word association propaganda.
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It’s to do with, as his rhetoric goes, Russian speakers and Russian ethnic groups, he’s not after a new Soviet state that is tied to a communist ideology.

“The demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”
“Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains.”
Both Putin quotes.
 
It kind of feels like a principle versus pragmatism issue to me. In principle we should stick up to a bully and tyrant, but thinking pragmatically as a traditional military response would almost certainly end in WW3 and billions of premature deaths I'd have to vote-No.

I know that may lead to Putin committing further atrocities but I'm afraid Pandora is well and truly out of her box already.
 
zorro_mfc said:
it’s his burning ambition
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Odd that he didn't mention it in his speech recently. Putin was trained as a lawyer. He came from the most European of Russian cities - St Petersburg. He was a backroom officer in the KGB and according to the source I read was not a field officer.

He actually asked to be part of NATO a few years ago but the Americans need an enemy to bamboozle their people into supporting military operations to make their elite rich, so they said No. (Which is likely the real reason this mess has been created).

His country spends a little bit more than the UK on military spending.

How exactly could he restore all those Soviet era states? I doubt he'll even be able to occupy Ukraine. The Russian's have recent history on occupying countries and it hasn't been good for them.

If you bother to read his speech he seems to regard the Soviet era as one of failure. Has to be a bit careful of course, the Russian people still idolise Stalin.
 
It's world war 3 if NATO goes in and helps Ukraine, it's not even a maybe but a definite. So the destruction of all other countries is acceptable? We missed our chance when we didn't sort them out with an Iron Dome or equivalent and more surface to air rockets, it's like really bad intentions to supporting Ukraine. We can't even get the electronic transfer of money to stop, which should be the minimum.
I
 
br14 said:
He was a backroom officer in the KGB and according to the source I read was not a field officer.
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What are you talking about.

Based on his performance and other factors, Putin was deployed to the city of Dresden in East Germany as a “legal” intelligence officer.He had a formal cover as the director of the House of Friendship of the USSR and GDR, but his real job was not a secret from the German authorities. In fact, Putin was part of the KGB office that closely worked with the Stasi and coordinated operations against West Germany and foreigners visiting East Germany.

Putin served in East Germany from 1985 to 1990. By the end of his stay, Putin advanced to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel of Justice of the KGB (“of Justice” referred to his legal education). Although, he was still primarily an implementer, not a boss, as his office wasn’t huge, and there were few opportunities for career advancement in Dresden. His job was called “the Senior Assistant to the Department Head”.

He was posted to east Berlin and rose up until He was the head of the FSB ( the successor to the kgb) , “not a field officer”. ??
 
Steve8778 said:
We are part of the 45,000 but nothing has been called as of yet. We are on 5 days notice as it stands. I probably can't say anything more than that.


Edit - its only 5000 thats been called on
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Yeah mate - I don't know how accurate the tweet is .... it's probably a load of ****, but you never know
 
zorro_mfc said:
The key with putin is don’t look at what he says look at what he does. That’s the key.
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I recommend doing both. He doesn't need to lie like a Western politician. He said he was going to invade and he did. And he told his people why, and what he was going to do. And it looks like he's doing exactly what he said. I read his speech and most of it I couldn't argue with. From a Russian position what has happened is totally unacceptable. Like having Russian military hardware all over an independent Scotland. We wouldn't be too happy. Not sure we'd invade mind.
 
br14 said:
Odd that he didn't mention it in his speech recently. Putin was trained as a lawyer. He came from the most European of Russian cities - St Petersburg. He was a backroom officer in the KGB and according to the source I read was not a field officer.
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Aye, he’s going to mention his true intentions in his speeches, he’s known for that. He’s also being saying Russia had no plans to invade Ukraine (whilst troops were massing on the border).

br14 said:
He actually asked to be part of NATO a few years ago but the Americans need an enemy to bamboozle their people into supporting military operations to make their elite rich, so they said No. (Which is likely the real reason this mess has been created).
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Well that wouldn’t be solely the US’s decision, but having a despot join NATO would have been a fantastic idea. Yes, it’s clear you think America is bad, fine, I don’t support all US and UK foreign policy follies, but other countries can be worse sometimes.

br14 said:
His country spends a little bit more than the UK on military spending.
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So? There’s military everywhere, it’s a heavily militarised country, there are towns down the road from me I can’t visit because they’re military towns. Their army and military machine is massive compared to ours, not our fault if they spend on crap training and hardware.

br14 said:
How exactly could he restore all those Soviet era states? I doubt he'll even be able to occupy Ukraine. The Russian's have recent history on occupying countries and it hasn't been good for them.
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He’s not looking to take back every last soviet outpost. But I think controlling Belarus, various Ukrainian incursions, land in Georgia and Moldova, and his increased recent influence in Kazakhstan is a decent indication of his intentions eh?

br14 said:
If you bother to read his speech he seems to regard the Soviet era as one of failure. Has to be a bit careful of course, the Russian people still idolise Stalin.
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Do they idolise Stalin? Really? You know that from reading it where? He’s still popular amongst some people for his war exploits and you can buy Stalin tat in the markets, but I’ve never met a Russian who idolises him, I’ve met a few who curse his name though. I grant you he came out top of a greatest Russian poll a wee while back, but a lot of his popularity seems revisionist and ironic. There’s a nice statue to him in Muzeon park with a smashed nose though.

Considering you haven’t replied to any of the several replies I’ve given to your hot-takes I suspect I’m on ignore, but you really don’t have your finger on the pulse here.
 
br14 said:
I recommend doing both. He doesn't need to lie like a Western politician. He said he was going to invade and he did. And he told his people why, and what he was going to do. And it looks like he's doing exactly what he said. I read his speech and most of it I couldn't argue with. From a Russian position what has happened is totally unacceptable. Like having Russian military hardware all over an independent Scotland. We wouldn't be too happy. Not sure we'd invade mind.
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Are you Russian br14?
 
zorro_mfc said:
Based on his performance and other factors, Putin was deployed to the city of Dresden in East Germany as a “legal” intelligence officer.
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Not a field officer in the sense he wasn't working in enemy territory running agents.
 
Steve8778 said:
Are you Russian br14?
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Realpolitik. I don't think starting a nuclear war is a good idea. So understanding why Putin is doing what he's doing is vital to get a positive outcome (as opposed to blowing everyone to bits). Half the posters on here don't seem to realise Russia couldn't possibly sustain a shooting war with the USA so would need to resort to first tactical, then strategic nuclear weapons if backed into a corner. Of which they have over 6000 by the way. More than enough to blow everyone to bits on the planet. And 70 submarines that are somewhere under the oceans just waiting for the command to fire their missiles.

A little caution might be called for. Putin has already implicitly threatened all out nuclear war.
 
There is a lot of worst case scenarios on this thread but Putin wouldn’t resort to nuclear weapons, as it would be self destruct, but he would and is posturing as a veiled threat, I don’t think we (NATO) would step in at this point but there will or maybe a point where it becomes unavoidable.
 
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