Shamima Begum

How could you possibly think that somebody who flew to a war zone, joined a terrorist organization, married a terrorist, had a baby with a terrorist, supported the terrorist organization, was through circumstance forced into a refugee camp and now has a grievance with uk government have more moderate views than me, teesside tommy who likes the odd beer and footy match
And you definition of terrorist is?

Is the US a terrorist state...is Israel?

The state of Israel was created by terrorism. Why else do you think 800,000 Palestinians fled their homes in terror of their lives.

The bombing of Baghdad was "Operation Shock and Awe" a pretty good description of terrorism.

According to Noam Chomsky:

"If they do it to us its terrorism. If we do it to them its counter terrorism."

The various assaults on Gaza are referred to by the Israelis sickeningly as "mowing the lawn" - the last of these killed 1400 Palestinians. Did the West call this an act of terrorism?
 
Somebody = child

The harsh truth is that if she was a white skinned, blonde haired and had blue eyes, both the outcome and comments from those who are pleased about this would be totally different.

What she did was wrong, but she was a child and her actions during that time should be with that lense in place.

Jack Letts had his citizenship revoked so I’m not sure your ethnicity point stands.

I’m also not sure to what extent I consider her a victim or believe her contrition having seen her interviews and read her previous comments. Youngsters do make many mistakes, but joining a raping, murdering death cult is not usually a common teenage rebellion stage.

That said, I fully believe she is a British problem to solve and there’s enough doubt about how she initially got groomed or convinced to join ISIS that stripping her citizenship was not correct in my eyes. As much as I would dislike her profiting from her experience if she returned, which I think would be almost certain if criminal charges were not an option, my distaste is minor in comparison to the UK doing the right thing in taking responsibility for its own citizens.
 
Jack Letts had his citizenship revoked so I’m not sure your ethnicity point stands.

I’m also not sure to what extent I consider her a victim or believe her contrition having seen her interviews and read her previous comments. Youngsters do make many mistakes, but joining a raping, murdering death cult is not usually a common teenage rebellion stage.

That said, I fully believe she is a British problem to solve and there’s enough doubt about how she initially got groomed or convinced to join ISIS that stripping her citizenship was not correct in my eyes. As much as I would dislike her profiting from her experience if she returned, which I think would be almost certain if criminal charges were not an option, my distaste is minor in comparison to the UK doing the right thing in taking responsibility for its own citizens.
Jack Letts was an adult.


My point was regarding a child, apologies of not clear.
 
I still think the best outcome would have been Begum in a British prison. I'm uncomfortable with us relying on other countries like this.

Threat to national security, she’ll be made a martyr and others will think they can do the same

I won't deny that would be a risk. But then she could be made a martyr and encourage others to act in the same way now couldn't she? If she was in a British prison, the officers would hopefully restrict who she was allowed to speak to and what she'd be able to say.
 
Yeah I must admit when I was 16 in 1978 i was offered a job by the IRA , thankfully my Dad told me to turn it down.
She was a 15 year old girl with, according to R4, credible evidence she was groomed for sex trafficking
believe her contrition having seen her interviews
All about opinion but, in her last interview she seemed contrite to me.

Let’s remember she has been refused citizenship only on the basis she is a National Security risk.
No one has been transparent about the evidence for that.

Notwithstanding that - the Home Secretary has the power to make the decision and that is that.

As per the norm - the facts don’t really matter to some. Their blood boils.

Like others, I’ll dip out of the discussion from now
 
Jack Letts was an adult.


My point was regarding a child, apologies of not clear.



I’m not sure the public reaction would be that different if Letts was 15 when he left, but we’ll never know. It’s not Begum’s skin colour or appearance that makes (reasonable) people uncomfortable, but the ideology she bought into (the extent to which she was coerced is another debate). Of course, nasty elements with ulterior motives will make their venom heard.

The online fury aimed at the blond singing Nazi twins, Westboro Baptist Church teens, the Covington maga hat kid etc… these examples off the top of my head are young and white and have attracted widespread hatred… if you are perceived to be doing a bad thing you will sometimes attract severe consequences, especially if it involves joining an evil organisation involved in mass murder.
 
There are plenty of Britons going off to Israel to join the IDF, who are engaged in genocide. I very much doubt their citizenship will be revoked.
Correct because as things stand Israel are not engaged in genocide according to the legal definition of that term.
 
"a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part"

Which part of this is Israel not committing?

The evidence is overwhelming.
Not so. I can condemn what is happening without agreeing it meets the legal definition. Same as the 'collective punishment' issue.

It's doing a pretty poor job of it if it wanted to destroy all Palistinians.
 
Read the definition: .."in whole or in part"
Yes I know that and I'm not going to support the Israeli actions. What they will argue is that their actions are aimed at destroying Hamas which is a terrorist organisation.

They will say that they do not have the intent 'to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group'.

The point being, to get back to the original query, is that if a British citizen served in the IDF and returned to the UK they would say you cannot sanction me for fighting against an organisation you have recognised as a terrorist one.
 
Yes I know that and I'm not going to support the Israeli actions. What they will argue is that their actions are aimed at destroying Hamas which is a terrorist organisation.

They will say that they do not have the intent 'to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group'.

The point being, to get back to the original query, is that if a British citizen served in the IDF and returned to the UK they would say you cannot sanction me for fighting against an organisation you have recognised as a terrorist one.

I genuinely don't understand why you think that it is in any way plausible that Israel are only targeting Hamas? IDF snipers are deliberately murdering old ladies, 5 year old kids and ambulance drivers. The evidence of intent to kill Palestinians at large in Gaza (and not just Hamas) is overwhelming and blatant.

"In arguing the case, they were able to draw on a new and comprehensive database, compiled by Law for Palestine, which meticulously documents and collates 500 statements that embody the Israeli state’s intention to commit genocide and incitement to genocide since October 7, 2023. The statements by people with command authority – state leaders, war cabinet ministers and senior army officers – and by other politicians, army officers, journalists and public figures reveal the widespread commitment in Israel to the genocidal destruction of Gaza."

 
I genuinely don't understand why you think that it is in any way plausible that Israel are only targeting Hamas? IDF snipers are deliberately murdering old ladies, 5 year old kids and ambulance drivers. The evidence of intent to kill Palestinians at large in Gaza (and not just Hamas) is overwhelming and blatant.

"In arguing the case, they were able to draw on a new and comprehensive database, compiled by Law for Palestine, which meticulously documents and collates 500 statements that embody the Israeli state’s intention to commit genocide and incitement to genocide since October 7, 2023. The statements by people with command authority – state leaders, war cabinet ministers and senior army officers – and by other politicians, army officers, journalists and public figures reveal the widespread commitment in Israel to the genocidal destruction of Gaza."

Thanks for that. Haven't time now but will read it later.
 
Her skin color has nothing to do with it. Her ideology does. Luckily in this country we’re more tolerant than the cause she joined. We rule by law whereby protected characteristics don’t feature in the outcome.
I’ve been in war zones and seen her ideology. It’s not pretty. If there is 0.00000001% chance she would be a threat then it’s the right outcome.

You're saying "her ideology", based on what she was groomed into, and god knows how that was done, but if it was anyone's daughter on here then I'm sure there would be a lot more empathy with the girl and a lot more focus on her groomers. I doubt she went there to get married to some other bloke within 10 days (when she was 15), and have 3 kids before she was 19, which all died (malnutrition and disease, says a lot about the conditions), doubt she wanted that either. Since her "marriage" was when she was 15, it's 100% guaranteed she was raped from day 10 at least, and at least technically until she was 16 (in the eyes of UK law), but probably the entire time she was there. Considering she was either pregnant, recovering, getting pregnant or with a kid for practically the entire time she was there it's not like it would even be possible she would have had the time or training to even do anything remotely high profile, or likely damaging, other than satisfying the ISIS groomers.

It's like saying someone with Stockholm Syndrome is fault, like they chose to be kidnapped, and because they either started believing it, felt forced to believe it, or couldn't get out of it then it's 100% their own fault, which is crazy aimed at a 15 year old girl. It's not like she was dropping bombs from planes on civilians etc.

I've been to war zones too, three trips in total, most of the time it was going because we had been conned by the yanks into thinking they were a threat or even fighting a different threat in their place (most of the public and MP's were conned too). Some might say we were groomed the same way, except we were fully adult males.

Even worse happened in Vietnam, loads of Americans conscripted into fighting a war which couldn't even be won, and they 100% did not want to go, where loads of civilians got killed, were the conscripts (on either side) at fault too? They even **** on them when they got back too, nice.
Same as the Russians on the front lines in Ukraine, loads of them don't want to fight but they have to or they get shot by their own side. Those who do want to fight (who are actually doing the fighting) have largely been groomed into it (their whole life, based on lies), and other wise they would not be there killing Ukrainians, it's only the top brass, or those making money from it who want the actual fighting or the end result, but they're not doing the fighting of course.

Anyone going to a trained conflict is much more of an increased threat to the public, even if they were fighting for the good side, groomed into fighting for the pretend good side, groomed into fighting for the bad side, or groomed into fighting the supposed bad side. War does terrible things to good and bad people, and has messed up many minds. Lots of the lads who I came back with were a nightmare out in public and would literally knock people out for "looking at them the wrong way", when they had literally done nothing wrong. Sure, you can't and shouldn't lock up those returning from your own side, on your own soil if you asked or groomed them into going. But as she was born in the UK, and only 15, which practically guarantees grooming and rape, then she's our problem, even if she was 100% into it or 0% into it.
 
Who cares what they'll argue? It's like the Ricky Gervais film where he invents lying on here this week.
The issue wasn't about the Israel it was about whether a UK citizen fighting in the IDF would have a problem if Israel was committing genocide.
 
The only way forward is empathy and compassion, not hatred. Hatred polarizes, compassion starts the process of healing. That's the way it is.
She's a UK citizen and made the wrong choices, naiive and brain washed, most likely still naiive and brainwashed. Limited education, grew up in an Islamic culture here in the UK when radicalism offers a path to glory and, for people like her, meaning. She made that choice.
So, I would have her back but under a strict programme of re-education. Sit her in a room and have her watch all the atrocities of ISIS until she understands that violence and murder just leads to more human suffering (I guess she already knows that because she is now suffering).
I would like to imagine she could do something good with the rest of her life. It would be a great thing if this country gave her that opportunity, and even if she doesn't, she will have a better understanding of where her her home is.
 
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