Question Time

Laughing

Well-known member
I think you misunderstood me. Yes they had a free choice, but it was a tainted choice from the vote leave campaign for many reasons. That's before you even get into the efficacy of a referendum based on one known condition vs all potential alternatives as a binary choice. But as you said there should have been a confirmatory referendum to validate that afterwards.

It's the politicians that should be accountable, more so than the people. If people are manipulated through lies, it's the liars that need to be held to account.....however and here's what this thread is really about, until those people manipulated by lies are prepared to look at themselves honestly and admit it, then they are guilty of not holding politicians to account. You have done the right thing by saying that you were sold a lie about staying in the single market, you've done your bit, most leave voters don't seem to have been that honest.
I don't buy that Boromart in terms of you wanting people to accept their mistakes. Either brexit will reduce our economy to an extent that it bites enough to switch voters of brexit or it wont. No amount of telling people that the fishing industry has been destroyed, or that we can't send sausages to Ireland or that the EU demand we have an Irish sea border despite the EU no longer being able to make laws in the UK is going to change anyone's mind unless it effects them directly.

Firstly a brexit vote is largely a tory vote and by and large they look after themselves so don't generally care if kids go hungry or nurses are on the bread line. Secondly, they need to see evidence in their day to day lives, not in the Guardian.

At the next election if enough voters are adversely affected by brexit ontop of tory cuts they will vote this bunch out, you would hope. No one on a message board is going to sway anyone. Jeeze most of us can't agree on keeping or selling Lewis Wing.

The internet is not about reasoned debate. It's largely about shouting loudest and "winning"
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
Ignorance is a key accusation used by some entrenched remainers. Most of the entrenched ones group every brexit voter together as being ignorant, stupid or the most laughable one, brainwashed. Absolutely lies were told by team brexit, i knew that and factored them in, i know others did too, just like lies were told by team remain………. house prices crashing on brexit, rampant inflation, dramatic fall in the Pound, immediate tax rises and spending cuts, bare shelves etc they were attempts to cause fear. People do not like it when people try to use scare tactics, those alone would have made some rebel in less well off communities.

If we ever rejoin it will be because of democracy, a peoples vote whether by referendum or general election mandate. I have no issue with that should it happen. If whats on offer is better than we have I would happily vote for it. However, if current remainers want to get to that stage, they need to channel their inner anger away from those voting brexit into positive persuasion via their local leaders and wider social contacts. Instead of belittling sections of society, try to highlight the journey for them and why their lives will be more enriched if they were to join with your thinking. Whether the EU will still exist in years to come, I am not so sure, I doubt it will have the level of membership it has today.
The post I was responding to WAS utterly, almost comically ignorant.
 

NYboro

Well-known member
People of 72 certainly were not taught metric systems. I doubt anyone in their 60s was either.

Your kids may be learning in metric units, but when they set foot into the world on their own, they'll come face to face with Imperial units every day. They are just embedded into British life, and it won't change.

Metric weights equivalent to Imperial exist all the time - I see 454 gram packs of stuff every time I shop. The thing about Imperial measurements is that they are useful. A pound of steak is just right for two, but ½ kilo is too much. You can pace out 100 yards, but not really 100 metres without looking like the Ministry of Silly Walks guy.

Now that the Brexit thing is over, I really expect we'll go back to using more Imperial measurements, although metric units will still be with us.
I'm 67 and I was most certainly taught metric. I'm looking forward to getting back to it after so long in the States.
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
most laughable one, brainwashed
Brainwashing is where people are convinced of something that isn't true by others. It has been proven that PR was used and was misinformation, and the guy last night is an absolute example that despite it being public domain for at least a decade the guy still believes the banana story enough to go on TV and spout it. That is brainwashing.

The PR spread through social media, was meant to sow certain stories in teh head of the public. Those stories were not true. We were not at risk of having thousands of turks walk into this country, the EU were not making us take thousands of Syrian refugees. These are propaganda and people believed them. What would you call it if not brainwashing?

Lets just stop with the false equivalence of 'team remain', they did not systematically spread lies, nowhere near. The vast majority of what they espoused was based on truth. Leave had huge lies. Be honest with yourself stop perpetuating the myth if you actually believe in bridging the divide.
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
Either brexit will reduce our economy to an extent that it bites enough to switch voters of brexit or it wont. No amount of telling people that the fishing industry has been destroyed, or that we can't send sausages to Ireland or that the EU demand we have an Irish sea border despite the EU no longer being able to make laws in the UK is going to change anyone's mind unless it effects them directly.
the dots have to be joined for people, otherwise propaganda will fill in the gaps.

When people start to pay more for fish, they need to know why, so it's important that the truth is clear and recorded, and discussed.
 

coluka

Well-known member
there should have been a confirmatory referendum to validate that afterwards.

Now that we can both seemingly agree on. I was advocating that too. I am sure many brexit voting people would also agree the brexit provided is not ideal in many's eyes. That is the fault of the MP’s across all parties, not the voters. We can’t do anything about the politicians once in power, except use our vote how we see fit. Though I expect an election much sooner than expected so the Tories can try to take advantage when it suits.
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
Now that we can both seemingly agree on. I was advocating that too. I am sure many brexit voting people would also agree the brexit provided is not ideal in many's eyes. That is the fault of the MP’s across all parties, not the voters. We can’t do anything about the politicians once in power, except use our vote how we see fit. Though I expect an election much sooner than expected so the Tories can try to take advantage when it suits.
I would argue it was an inevitable consequence of the referendum that was presented, it was flawed. Brexit wasn't defined in absolute terms for the ref, so it was being left for politicians to argue about what it means afterwards.....and that is an open invitation to deceit. That was one of my original arguments to remain, leaving the decision to politicians to decide was an open invitation to corruption.
 

Redwurzel

Well-known member
I was taught metric from about 1970 in school, before that the class rulers were just in inches.

Moving to decimal coinage was a big thing in 1971.

Gallons did not get replaced with litres till around 1988 on Petrol Stations. UK car magazines still quote MPG figures and not km per litre or miles per litre.

I would say Kilos has only become dominant in recent years, certainly since 1990s.

I prefer metric, but usually work in my head in both

We still have all our road signs in Imperial - miles and miles per hour.

Imperial is also different for some measures in the USA compared with the UK just to complicate it more.

As said before it was take years for the pros/cons of leaving the EU organisation to become fully apparent. I would give it at least another five from now before a full analysis can be made.

As said before but I will say it again those voting to leave were in the left behind areas and predominately older - this is a more clear correlation than which party they normally vote for - for a while Wales had no Tory MPs, but the country voted to leave!
 

BoroFur

Well-known member
Everybody must know there's 2.2lbs in a kilo, a pint of milk is 568mm, 8 pints in a gallon, 4.5 litres in a gallon etc. etc.
 

coluka

Well-known member
Brainwashing is where people are convinced of something that isn't true by others. It has been proven that PR was used and was misinformation, and the guy last night is an absolute example that despite it being public domain for at least a decade the guy still believes the banana story enough to go on TV and spout it. That is brainwashing.

The PR spread through social media, was meant to sow certain stories in teh head of the public. Those stories were not true. We were not at risk of having thousands of turks walk into this country, the EU were not making us take thousands of Syrian refugees. These are propaganda and people believed them. What would you call it if not brainwashing?

Lets just stop with the false equivalence of 'team remain', they did not systematically spread lies, nowhere near. The vast majority of what they espoused was based on truth. Leave had huge lies. Be honest with yourself stop perpetuating the myth if you actually believe in bridging the divide.
I do know what brainwashing is 😀

I am sure some leavers like some remainers have their trusted sources and believe everything they hear or see from them, especially if it fits a persons own narrative closely, whether it be truth or lie. Jounalism is no longer about truth unfortunately, i do agree. I am not accepting that so many people believed the NHS bus analogy that keeps getting used though and stuff like that. I don’t know a single person that believed it, not one. In my circle we mocked it and Boris at the time. Maybe i am being naive, if someone tells me the grass is green, i like to have a glance to see. I do not trust all that i read or hear. All my social groups family friends, former colleagues appear to me to do that too. I accept the referendum was flawed, I accept some voted brexit to give the establishment a kicking and probably didn’t understand all the little nuances, who did? Not even the politicians on either side did.

It is what it is and we have to get on with life, getting over the pandemic and kick-starting the economy and living our best life with whatever constraints surround us. Attacking one another over brexit won’t change anything, most of all it won’t attract those wanting brexit to want to rejoin. If the EU want that themselves, they have a funny way of wooing us. If UK lives are made worse and the EU thrives then people may change their view. If the UK thrives and the EU less so what happens then. All I hope for is we thrive as a United Kingdom and we work with our neighbours to keep peace, trade fairly and respect each others choices rather than constantly bicker as we seem to be doing. It does feel like the EU are trying to punish us rather than trying to get along. I do worry that they will try to weaponise trade as a tool against Northern Ireland using them as a pawn to eventually bring about a united Ireland. But thats just a personal concern rather than anything based on evidence of course.
 

Nobby_Barnes

Well-known member
Everybody must know there's 2.2lbs in a kilo, a pint of milk is 568mm, 8 pints in a gallon, 4.5 litres in a gallon etc. etc.
The only one I can remember it this because it rhyme's....

'A litre of water's a pint and three quarters'

See how we've completely hijacked this thread Borofur... Sorry guys 🤣
 

bear66

Well-known member
I do know what brainwashing is 😀

I am sure some leavers like some remainers have their trusted sources and believe everything they hear or see from them, especially if it fits a persons own narrative closely, whether it be truth or lie. Jounalism is no longer about truth unfortunately, i do agree. I am not accepting that so many people believed the NHS bus analogy that keeps getting used though and stuff like that. I don’t know a single person that believed it, not one. In my circle we mocked it and Boris at the time. Maybe i am being naive, if someone tells me the grass is green, i like to have a glance to see. I do not trust all that i read or hear. All my social groups family friends, former colleagues appear to me to do that too. I accept the referendum was flawed, I accept some voted brexit to give the establishment a kicking and probably didn’t understand all the little nuances, who did? Not even the politicians on either side did.

It is what it is and we have to get on with life, getting over the pandemic and kick-starting the economy and living our best life with whatever constraints surround us. Attacking one another over brexit won’t change anything, most of all it won’t attract those wanting brexit to want to rejoin. If the EU want that themselves, they have a funny way of wooing us. If UK lives are made worse and the EU thrives then people may change their view. If the UK thrives and the EU less so what happens then. All I hope for is we thrive as a United Kingdom and we work with our neighbours to keep peace, trade fairly and respect each others choices rather than constantly bicker as we seem to be doing. It does feel like the EU are trying to punish us rather than trying to get along. I do worry that they will try to weaponise trade as a tool against Northern Ireland using them as a pawn to eventually bring about a united Ireland. But thats just a personal concern rather than anything based on evidence of course.
The evidence is that we negotiated the agreement, we signed the agreement, we don't like the agreement.

Some examples of what the Tories said then and what they say now here

One of the before /after:

Ranil Jayawardena, trade minister
What he said then: “We will be an independent United Kingdom – and this is a fundamental point – because, unlike the last withdrawal agreement, this deal will mean that Northern Ireland will remain in the UK’s customs territory, so it will not be for foreign powers to decide the future of any part of our country. This new deal that Boris has achieved – against all the odds – will bring an end to the uncertainty and division.”

What he says now: “It is wrong that anyone should be threatening the British sausage. We will stand up for the British sausage and no one will ever be able to destroy it.”
 

coluka

Well-known member
The evidence is that we negotiated the agreement, we signed the agreement, we don't like the agreement.

Some examples of what the Tories said then and what they say now here

One of the before /after:

Ranil Jayawardena, trade minister
What he said then: “We will be an independent United Kingdom – and this is a fundamental point – because, unlike the last withdrawal agreement, this deal will mean that Northern Ireland will remain in the UK’s customs territory, so it will not be for foreign powers to decide the future of any part of our country. This new deal that Boris has achieved – against all the odds – will bring an end to the uncertainty and division.”

What he says now: “It is wrong that anyone should be threatening the British sausage. We will stand up for the British sausage and no one will ever be able to destroy it.”
I agree, this is typical politicians lying without any redress. It is not the fault of the voters for brexit that our failed political system rumbles on with little accountability. No doubt some believed him, many sceptible on the claim and a good many did not believe it too. Politicians that deliberately lie should be classed as committing gross misconduct.
 

NYboro

Well-known member
I agree, this is typical politicians lying without any redress. It is not the fault of the voters for brexit that our failed political system rumbles on with little accountability. No doubt some believed him, many sceptible on the claim and a good many did not believe it too. Politicians that deliberately lie should be classed as committing gross misconduct.
It would be a bit difficult seeing as people already knew or should have known that Johnson was sacked twice for lying before he was even elected as an MP.
 
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