Question Time tonight

[Wiseman_Vaughn]

This. And what Corcaigh said.

I'm getting a bit sick of people blaming labour for the worst government we've ever seen. Criticise them by all means, god knows they need to do better. But they aren't responsible for the actions of this government.

I'll tell you who is responsible, people who seem to be looking for any excuse to continue to support the crooks or at least stand by and let them continue running the country into the ground.

Assuming they aren't Tory shills shame on them and everyone else who thinks the same way. This government has inflicted unbelievable misery on people and look like continuing to do so. "Labour aren't perfect" is a pathetic excuse to allow them to continue.

In fact labour can never be perfect because the labour the likes of the centrists want is very different from the labour the Corbynites want. I've seen both types moan "they can't possibly vote for labour" while criticising the government for being as bad as they are. Both sides need to get over themselves.

I think the frustration is that Labour are a totally ineffective opposition.
They are devoid of solid policy ideas. That coupled with a lack of charisma will keep this bunch of crooks in power for years to come.
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

[Paintolerance]

Maybe the labour shadow minister could've said this last night.

Yes, she should have said the Labour Party had nothing to apologise for 're Covid, and referred Fiona Bruce and the a***holes in the audience to the government with an 80 seat majority and a cheerleader working for the beeb as chief political correspondent

She may have faced even more of a backlash for that of course, because this country seemingly wants to hold the opposition to account rather more than the imbeciles running the place

 

[Laughing]

I think the frustration is that Labour are a totally ineffective opposition.
They are devoid of solid policy ideas. That coupled with a lack of charisma will keep this bunch of crooks in power for years to come.
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

The problem with your comment wiseman is that it doesn't say anything. It's one cliche after another.

Starmer has to play to an entire nation not just this board.

Rhetoric, by and large wouldn't be received well by the electorate.

Blaming starmer for a decade of terrible governance doesn't hold water and you know it.

 

[festa5]

I think the frustration is that Labour are a totally ineffective opposition.
They are devoid of solid policy ideas. That coupled with a lack of charisma will keep this bunch of crooks in power for years to come.
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I understand that. I'm frustrated too because at this point the only thing I really care about is removing these crooks from power and the less effective labour are, the less chance there is of that happening.

However they are no less competent that the government. Anyone who can see this government for what they are but who fully intend not to vote labour (or whoever has the best chance of outing them) is complicit in whatever this government does in my opinion.

It's not the criticism of labour I have a problem with, as long as it's balanced. It's people openly stating they won't vote for them.

 

[Wiseman_Vaughn]

Rhetoric, by and large wouldn't be received well by the electorate.

How about some solid policy? Getting behind things (whether they are popular or not) and sticking with it - taking the standpoint that over time we will convince the electorate through solid arguments.

Take Brexit as an example.... At a glance do we really know what Labour think as a party.....Say if they were to say Our policy is to rejoin the EU in time, some would be outraged and some would be right behind it, but it is a solid policy and they could then go about arguing to rejoin, based on what has happened since we left.

 

[Laughing]

How about some solid policy? Getting behind things (whether they are popular or not) and sticking with it - taking the standpoint that over time we will convince the electorate through solid arguments.

Take Brexit as an example.... At a glance do we really know what Labour think as a party.....Say if they were to say Our policy is to rejoin the EU in time, some would be outraged and some would be right behind it, but it is a solid policy and they could then go about arguing to rejoin, based on what has happened since we left.

Using brexit as an argument, so you really think that campaigning on a rejoin ticket will do any good?

Starmer said at the lp conference that they will make brexit better. He didn't outline how hip would do this but I can understand why, he is referring to rejoining the single market and custom union, if he says that outright the tories and their complicit press will shout that he is ignoring the will of the people and wants to rejoin the EU.

Brexit is an elephant in the room but there are people who still support the project and people who don't want to go back through the fiasco of the last 5 years, even if they never wanted to leave the EU.

That's the reality of the brexit project.

 

[Wiseman_Vaughn]

Using brexit as an argument, so you really think that campaigning on a rejoin ticket will do any good?

Starmer said at the lp conference that they will make brexit better. He didn't outline how hip would do this but I can understand why, he is referring to rejoining the single market and custom union, if he says that outright the tories and their complicit press will shout that he is ignoring the will of the people and wants to rejoin the EU.

Brexit is an elephant in the room but there are people who still support the project and people who don't want to go back through the fiasco of the last 5 years, even if they never wanted to leave the EU.

That's the reality of the brexit project.

I was just using Brexit as an example but yes, I think it would give them a solid platform for debate.

 

[Wiseman_Vaughn]

....Just thinking about it, how many new voters have come online since the 2016 referendum. Their votes are up for grabs.

 

[Laughing]

....Just thinking about it, how many new voters have come online since the 2016 referendum. Their votes are up for grabs.

Well we don't know but I take your point, I just don't agree with it.

If the 2016 vote never happened, I suspect that today it might be a different outcome, but that's not the same as campaigning for a reversal.

I do think Brexit has to be tackled but I don't know how to go about that.

Starmer has started to negotiate a deal with the EU for touring artists which is a terrific idea for many reasons and will start to demonstrate that even outside of the EU there is a better deal to be struck.

 

[Wiseman_Vaughn]

Well we don't know but I take your point, I just don't agree with it.

If the 2016 vote never happened, I suspect that today it might be a different outcome, but that's not the same as campaigning for a reversal.

I do think Brexit has to be tackled but I don't know how to go about that.

Starmer has started to negotiate a deal with the EU for touring artists which is a terrific idea for many reasons and will start to demonstrate that even outside of the EU there is a better deal to be struck.

There does appear to be some support for that policy though. I think it is a worthwhile platform for debate. At least it distinctly differentiates Labour from the Tories.
I didn't meant to hijack this thread with the B word - i was just using it as an example.

"Vocal Remain campaigner, Lord Adonis, said the leadership should go further and campaign to rejoin both the single market and customs union at the next election - key parts of membership of the EU."

"Mr Benn said: "Let's just say it, Brexit is a mess."

 

[Brian Marwood]

1. The knuckle dragging racists who mainly live in historical guaranteed labour seats and never thought about voting before suddenly decided to go out and vote in hordes as there was finally something that appeases their racist mindset.

2. Labour haven't had a leader with charming charisma since Tony Blair and either you have something that appeals to the masses (Brexit/change) and/or you are personally appealing to the voter.

Labour need to hope that the racists feel that their war is won and crawl back into the caves.

 

[jam69]

Yes, she should have said the Labour Party had nothing to apologise for 're Covid, and referred Fiona Bruce and the a***holes in the audience to the government with an 80 seat majority and a cheerleader working for the beeb as chief political correspondent

She may have faced even more of a backlash for that of course, because this country seemingly wants to hold the opposition to account rather more than the imbeciles running the place

The media started blaming labour as soon as the report came out on Tuesday.
What chance does any party have when the MSM are entrenched in their support of the tories.
Maybe the question we should ask is does a big chunk of the blame lie with the media for blindly supporting such incompance

 

[Aet290204]

Simplistic view I know but for me it’s more the fact with so much crap going on Labour and Starmer can’t even land a punch on Johnson and the Tories. Was the same with Corbyn and May when Brexit was going on. They are just hopeless opposition. Exemplified by that daft woman on QT last night.

 

[SE4 Red]

The media started blaming labour as soon as the report came out on Tuesday.
What chance does any party have when the MSM are entrenched in their support of the tories.
Maybe the question we should ask is does a big chunk of the blame lie with the media for blindly supporting such incompance

I get that there is an ongoing struggle with he media but they need to call it out. At the minute they're offering no opposition. This is coming from someone who voted for Starmer to be leader.

The current polling should be enough to make them chang tact. They can't lay a finger on this government at the minute which blows my mind.

 

[Laughing]

Simplistic view I know but for me it’s more the fact with so much crap going on Labour and Starmer can’t even land a punch on Johnson and the Tories. Was the same with Corbyn and May when Brexit was going on. They are just hopeless opposition. Exemplified by that daft woman on QT last night.

Your right it is a simplistic view aet. That doesn't make it wrong but it does fail to consider how complex politics is when you are trying to convince a disparate nation.

We have socialists, racists, right wing idiots who blame anyone who talks funny, a complicit media who would die out without capitalism.

Bare in mind to get an 80 seat majority the tories didn't win lots of votes but lots of seats with a handful of votes. That's how finely balanced fptp campaigning is.

 

[Paintolerance]

Simplistic view I know but for me it’s more the fact with so much crap going on Labour and Starmer can’t even land a punch on Johnson and the Tories. Was the same with Corbyn and May when Brexit was going on. They are just hopeless opposition. Exemplified by that daft woman on QT last night.

Here's the thing. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows the following:

The government Covid response caused 000s of unnecessary deaths
Child poverty is at an obscene level for a country of our wealth
The PM is a compulsive liar
Food bank usage is sky high
Homelesness is at intolerable levels
The NHS and indeed the Police Force have been underfunded for over a decade under Tory power
Brexit has been a disaster
The metropolitan police force is rotten from the top down

That's just for starters

Now, I'm alright Jack doesn't need Ed Milliband, Corbyn on Starmer to tell him that. He already knows. But you know what, while under the misguided impression that he himself is better off, he doesn't give a sh*t about any of it

In such a state, the opposition job becomes almost impossible. Jack has closed his ears, shut his eyes and is saying nowt. It's how he sleeps at night

There are a few Jacks on here it seems

 

[SE4 Red]

Here's the thing. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows the following:

The government Covid response caused 000s of unnecessary deaths
Child poverty is at an obscene level for a country of our wealth
The PM is a compulsive liar
Food bank usage is sky high
Homelesness is at intolerable levels
The NHS and indeed the Police Force have been underfunded for over a decade under Tory power
Brexit has been a disaster
The metropolitan police force is rotten from the top down

That's just for starters

Now, I'm alright Jack doesn't need Ed Milliband, Corbyn on Starmer to tell him that. He already knows. But you know what, while under the misguided impression that he himself is better off, he doesn't give a sh*t about any of it

In such a state, the opposition job becomes almost impossible. Jack has closed his ears, shut his eyes and is saying nowt. It's how he sleeps at night

There are a few Jacks on here it seems

So what's the solution?

 

[Paintolerance]

So what's the solution?

That's the tricky part!

Things get so, so bad that those so selfish they care only about themselves can no longer deny the financial impact on them (I give up on ever hoping they will care about the society as a whole). This option of course means the country will absolutely be in the gutter

Alternatively, all parties to the left of this mob, which to be honest is everyone apart from the EDL and their ilk, form a rainbow coalition and get this lot out. Unfortunately, I think every which one of them will be way too stubborn for that. But, if I did happen to head up the Labour party, that is what I would press for

 

[jam69]

Here's the thing. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows the following:

The government Covid response caused 000s of unnecessary deaths
Child poverty is at an obscene level for a country of our wealth
The PM is a compulsive liar
Food bank usage is sky high
Homelesness is at intolerable levels
The NHS and indeed the Police Force have been underfunded for over a decade under Tory power
Brexit has been a disaster
The metropolitan police force is rotten from the top down

That's just for starters

Now, I'm alright Jack doesn't need Ed Milliband, Corbyn on Starmer to tell him that. He already knows. But you know what, while under the misguided impression that he himself is better off, he doesn't give a sh*t about any of it

In such a state, the opposition job becomes almost impossible. Jack has closed his ears, shut his eyes and is saying nowt. It's how he sleeps at night

There are a few Jacks on here it seems

nail on head

 

[SuperStu]

Simplistic view I know but for me it’s more the fact with so much crap going on Labour and Starmer can’t even land a punch on Johnson and the Tories. Was the same with Corbyn and May when Brexit was going on. They are just hopeless opposition. Exemplified by that daft woman on QT last night.

Have to say that's a bit revisionist.

Corbyn took May's majority off her in the 2017 election, broke the record for the number of times an opposition defeated the government in parliament, broke the record for the largest government defeat in parliament and got parliament to vote through a motion holding the government in contempt. Labour were ahead in the polls through to the end of 2017 as well. Obviously it all went very wrong for him 2018 onwards but I don't think it's right to say he never landed a punch vs May.

Especially compared to:

Miliband vs Cameron
Corbyn vs Cameron
Corbyn vs Boris
Starmer vs Boris.