Premier league proposes reducing number of clubs 20 to 18 and scrapping the league cup

Zoophonic said:
The system has created the behaviour Soutra. Yes many clubs have behaved irrationally in their desperation to reach the promised land. Inevitable given the huge gap in funding between the EPL and the EFL. Once pandoras box was created in 1992 we have slowly been moving towards this and yes I agree many EFL clubs will see this as a way out.
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The system is a shambles.
It is totally unsustainable even for the top clubs who are apparently awash with money (but interestingly enough are massively in debt).
Ive said before on here that clubs are interdependent both within and outside of their leagues.
If the top 6 drive everybody else to the wall it is all over for them as well as the sport will lose its critical mass structure in all sorts of ways.
At that point the foreign billionaires will shrug and move on to something else.
 
HolgateCorner said:
The system is a shambles.
It is totally unsustainable even for the top clubs who are apparently awash with money (but interestingly enough are massively in debt).
Ive said before on here that clubs are interdependent both within and outside of their leagues.
If the top 6 drive everybody else to the wall it is all over for them as well as the sport will lose its critical mass structure in all sorts of ways.
At that point the foreign billionaires will shrug and move on to something else.
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If the top 6 drive everyone else to the wall they'll still be Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich etc to play against. I think they'd be fine with it.

To be honest I don't think that's what they want though, they want a situation like they have in Spain where the TV revenue is distributed less evenly. The likes of Man Utd and Liverpool know that the oversees viewer is paying to watch them so they get the lions share of the money.

This isn't about helping out anyone else for the big clubs, its about making themselves richer.

I wish there was a way of kicking out the big 6 and having a football league without them.
 
HolgateCorner said:
The system is a shambles.
It is totally unsustainable even for the top clubs who are apparently awash with money (but interestingly enough are massively in debt).
Ive said before on here that clubs are interdependent both within and outside of their leagues.
If the top 6 drive everybody else to the wall it is all over for them as well as the sport will lose its critical mass structure in all sorts of ways.
At that point the foreign billionaires will shrug and move on to something else.
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Debt - in the context of Prem League teams - is just total debt minus cash at hand. A lot of clubs owe money to benevolent owners, but there's not much prospect of any of them pulling the plug. Taking non liquid assets (like stadia, training grounds, player registrations, image rights etc) into account, most Prem League teams are pretty well off now.

I'm not sure that football clubs are interdependent. Prem League teams are independent, and Football League teams are dependent (mainly on benevolent owners and the Prem League). That's how it's come to this state of affairs, where the majority are cap in hand to 20 Prem League teams.
 
I really don't get why the big clubs are always so desperate to get rid of the league cup. I think they'll come to regret it after.

It'll just make it harder for them to maintain their big squads, and it's one less trophy to go around.
 
I can see a lot of current EFL club owners seeing this as a way out - a chance to cash in/cut losses before what looks like to be a financially tough next 2-5 years, but it will be to the detriment of the long term value of the clubs as a sporting enterprise.

For me (in my mid-30s) the joy of English football is that clubs further down the pyramid can go toe to toe with the biggest/richest clubs in cup competitions, and often even in the league itself - just look at Wycombe this season. Also bigger clubs can fall just as far - just look at Sunderland, and that all adds to the texture. No matter who you are everyone is playing to the same rules.

The devil is in the details of this proposal - up-to four loans from one club so certain clubs will become essentially B-Teams by stealth. Scrapping of the League Cup so that means clubs in the top two divisions outside the usual champions league competitors can go for the FA Cup, or winning their own league as the only opportunities for silverware? Dropping the community shield - why? - so a few more pre-season games during tours of Asia can be slotted in. All about the dollar.

And do you really think this is a one time proposal? Every season new changes will be brought in by those who have the whip hand that suit the long term dominance of the mega rich clubs. They might not have eliminated relegation yet, but give them 5 years.

I'm all for progress and evolving with the times but why does it feel like every piece of 'progress' in football and outside over the last decade has just been a brazen power grab by those with the money to fend off dissent?
 
SuperStu said:
I really don't get why the big clubs are always so desperate to get rid of the league cup. I think they'll come to regret it after.

It'll just make it harder for them to maintain their big squads, and it's one less trophy to go around.
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Anything that distracts from European football and foreign money needs cutting down in their eyes.
 
Makes sense to the big clubs. Not so much for the lower half of the perm but then again they want to concentrate on surviving each season not try in vain to get into Europe Via a Cup competition they are not likely to win.
 
The top six are not going to leave to join a Euro Super League as they want to have their cake and eat it.
The crowds want to see Liverpool v Man U. Man U v Man City etc. That goes for TVs audiences too. They need to dominate English football as well as be part of a European cartel. They would want to play for more European games but they also need the near full programme at home as they can dominate to rights there, in Europe they would divide it between another cartel.
Scrapping the Community/Charity Shield says it all doesn't it. Millions of pounds get divided up to community causes from that game,
But the point is they would not leave just to join a European Super League as they need to rake in millions and millions from creaming off all the income from their dominance of the English game and the worldwide broadcast rights.
 
Zoophonic said:
Of course Parry has consulted with the EFL clubs on this. If he hasnt then his job would be untenable. I suspect the majority of EFL clubs are in favour such is their desperate plight. .
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You would expect this to be the case, but even after reading the EFL statement the point still seems rather opaque.

The more I read about this the more it seems obvious that its a stepping stone to a much smaller PL (and I mean a handful of clubs, not the 18 suggested), which will in turn inevitably lead to European super league.

Which leaves everyone else cast adrift. I cant see it happening, but if it did many clubs, like ours, that rely on PL promotions would surely become less relevant?
 
Soutra said:
Debt - in the context of Prem League teams - is just total debt minus cash at hand. A lot of clubs owe money to benevolent owners, but there's not much prospect of any of them pulling the plug. Taking non liquid assets (like stadia, training grounds, player registrations, image rights etc) into account, most Prem League teams are pretty well off now.

I'm not sure that football clubs are interdependent. Prem League teams are independent, and Football League teams are dependent (mainly on benevolent owners and the Prem League). That's how it's come to this state of affairs, where the majority are cap in hand to 20 Prem League teams.
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‘A lot of clubs owe money to benevolent owners’ - call me old fashioned but that’s debt.
And it’s an unsustainable model, a complete shambles.
Football clubs are interdependent for the reasons Rob has posted above and don’t kid yourself that you don’t need a relegation battle to maintain an interesting and competitive league.
Man U and Liverpool need some cannon fodder to show off against.
Take away the cannon fodder and it’s all over for them and their ‘benevolent’ owners.
 
Abel Tasman said:
I actually hope Steve Gibson makes a statement on this. Really like to know his view and whether he stands with his fellow clubs or is a dissenting voice.
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It's unthinkable that there hasn't been formal consultation with the EPL clubs, but I've not seen any press relating to the views of the clubs, which is a bit surprising given the magnitude of the proposal.
 
We are largely irrelevant now Jonny even before something like this goes through.

Maybe its a sign of age but football is not what it used to be. Even when we had crap teams decades ago you still had a bit of hope that one day the club produce a good crop of youngsters and/or we could do a Brian Clough at Forest.

I know Leicester did it but they were still backed by a billionaire, what hope do we have as a club now? Get promoted and have 2 or years years of getting battered every week before we go down again?

When we have money creating such unequal levels of playing field you have to question is it even sport anymore.
 
Uwefuchs said:
We are largely irrelevant now Jonny even before something like this goes through.

Maybe its a sign of age but football is not what it used to be. Even when we had crap teams decades ago you still had a bit of hope that one day the club produce a good crop of youngsters and/or we could do a Brian Clough at Forest.

I know Leicester did it but they were still backed by a billionaire, what hope do we have as a club now? Get promoted and have 2 or years years of getting battered every week before we go down again?

When we have money creating such unequal levels of playing field you have to question is it even sport anymore.
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Sums up how I feel really, my interest in football is waning and has been for a while, which in turn means my interest in Boro does too. I find the whole thing a bit pathetic these days and increasingly so, to the point where I can take it or leave it.
 
SuperStu said:
I really don't get why the big clubs are always so desperate to get rid of the league cup. I think they'll come to regret it after.

It'll just make it harder for them to maintain their big squads, and it's one less trophy to go around.
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It's a strange one, they don't mind playing their u21s in the Johnstone's Paints or whatever it's called, and don't play their star players until the final/semi-final so it's a great way to get game time for their squad players. I think this year's model of having most of the League Cup essentially as pre-season could be a sustainable model. I can see that the big six might see the League Cup as irrelevant compared to Europe and the rest compared to staying in the premier league, but it doesn't have to impact on that.
 
Will be absolutely devastated if we get rid of the league cup. For someone who is becoming a first time dad soon I would be absolutely devastated to explain to my son that the only trophy we have won in our history no longer is in existence because of some awful power grab by the premier league mega rich. Would be gutted.

Hope none of this ***** comes off.
 
It isn't the only way out. Let the clubs fail. They'll all start again. And owned and run by fans this time.

Alternatively play hard ball. Threaten to split from the premier league. Make 80% of premier league games meaningless.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
It isn't the only way out. Let the clubs fail. They'll all start again. And owned and run by fans this time.

Alternatively play hard ball. Threaten to split from the premier league. Make 80% of premier league games meaningless.
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This is what I'm thinking I'd love to see the other 12 Premier league clubs call their bluff and threaten to leave the Premier league.

It would never happen but its a nice thought.
 
The big 6 probably want an Asian/Middle East tournament for themselves as they can get more money than present in this area - so anything that cuts the size fo the EPL is good in their eyes. The lunch time kick offs are for the Asian market. They even started games at 11.30am in the past.

The Champions League group stages is a bit of a pain too for them playing teams that are just fodder and are English Championship level.

The League Cup and even the FA Cup has been devalued by the the big 6 for the last 20 years and it has affected the revenue generated with tickets selling for only £10 to get people to see quite previously important games. In some cases the big 6 have played youth teams for 3rd round FAC games.

The pull of the big 6 is enormous on global terms - I was watching a TV programme called Enslaved about Black Slavery from West Africa to the Americas and they went to Suriname (a small country at the Northern tip of South American) to trace the descendents of escaped slaves. The descendents had little money living very basically in a jungle like environment without mod cons. The first one they met was a middle aged bloke with a Chelsea away top on.

To show my lack of interest in the EPL - I don't think I have watched MOTD since 2017.

Alot of the Sky era changes I dislike, but football is more high profile now than in 1992, the facilities for the fans are better, the facilities for the other visitors like media are better, the training facilities for players are better - certainly in the top 50 clubs. The players are ten times richer. Lower down this is not so true and life goes on as it did more like in the 1980s. To me the appeal of the English game has been its pyramid structure where say a Division 1 club think they have a chance of getting into the top tier like Wigan and Bournemouth did. If we end up like Spain, football is less attractive for people to follow in my opinion. David has to have a chance against Goliath, if he doesn't there will be no Davids.
 
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