Couldn't be further from the truth. If Labour are moving to the right just to win then the conservatives are still winning, they are just disguised as Labour.
Politics may be changing
- Thread starter Laughing
- Start date
Laughing
Well-known member
That pre-supposes that you are right. I generally don't agree with you. Not really a fan of starmer, but to describe him as a tory isn't true.
h_m_boro
Well-known member
But his policies have seen a massive shift from the left/socialist ones HE laid out In HIS leadership campaign.
Starmer gets in and I honestly don't think we will see a huge difference from where we are now. Possibly less corruption, bit more honesty but policy wise......
1finny
Well-known member
But his policies have seen a massive shift from the left/socialist ones HE laid out In HIS leadership campaign.
Starmer gets in and I honestly don't think we will see a huge difference from where we are now. Possibly less corruption, bit more honesty but policy wise......
The one thing we ought to have learnt is that leadership campaigns and manifestos mean Jack Schoite.
It’s about getting power and governing.
That inevitably involves compromise which basically means your manifesto goes up in smoke.
Massive majority takes you in one direction, small majority takes you in another.
Will everyone one get what they want from a Labour government?
Absolutely not.
Some will prefer the status quo others will want change and see how it develops.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
This country will struggle to change so long as enough people believe that the policies of Corbynites - taken for granted in many countries including Denmark, the happiest country in the world - are hard left. It's part of the con.
Laughing
Well-known member
These arguments have been done over and over. Starme renagaing on leadership promises doesn't make him a tory. It does mean you may be right to be suspicious but the 2 things aren't the same.But his policies have seen a massive shift from the left/socialist ones HE laid out In HIS leadership campaign.
Starmer gets in and I honestly don't think we will see a huge difference from where we are now. Possibly less corruption, bit more honesty but policy wise......
Wiseman_Vaughn
Well-known member
It's the political system that needs to change.
Sorry , but Denmark isn’t corbyn politics . Nor is Scandinavia . Swedish friend of mine even told me corbyn would be considered hard left in his country
It’s not just the economic argument , it’s his batshit insane foreign policy outlook too . He has been on record calling for nato to disband , Ukraine to stop fighting and calling the Iranian revolution the best thing to ever happen to Iran
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
Nice little switcheroo there from Denmark to Sweden. I'm sure your Swedish friend is correct in his consideration of Corbyn but then, Sweden has just taken a swing to the right with the election of a right wing coalition government which includes the far right Swedish Democrat party. Corbyn's 2017 manifesto though, was pretty much regarded as normal by Danes.
Nero
Well-known member
Absolutely. Nothing will really change until there’s political will to admit neoliberalism is a failed economic model. Politicians of all parties dare not take on the system though.
Millbrook
Well-known member
Denmark is a free market economy with heavy caveats regarding the social safety nets paid for by high taxes. Nothing wrong with that but to liken it to Corbyn's manifesto is a misunderstanding of Denmarks approach.
Otto42
Well-known member
Shy Tories have always been an issue, remember this particularly in 1992 and 2015, tbh expected it in 1997 but was pleasantly surprised otherwise. Shows that Starmer won’t necessarily win because the Tories are rubbish, needs a vision and a mantra. I personally like the green revolution stuff, but not sure it breaks through outside of the metropolitan areas, need to big up investment and seize the levelling up agenda imho.
Wiseman_Vaughn
Well-known member
Labour must not lose sight of the fact that they will get into power that people are fed up with the tories.
Anton_Berg
Well-known member
Politics won't change if people keep voting Tory/Labour/Can't be bothered.
Sweden took a swing to right sometime ago. When my friend, who had been in Swedish politics most of his adult life, read the 2017 Labour manifesto he remarked that to him it could have been a bit more to the left in some areas…but he was at the point of abandoning the Soc-Dems because of the constant moves rightward. He eventually joined Vänsterpartiet. (the left party)
Strangely enough his old friend, a Norwegian CDU MP in their Parliament had no problems with it. Didn’t bother checking with Danish mates.
There was always, it seemed an unwritten agreement in place among the major Swedish parties, that none of them would ever enter a coalition with the Svenska Nazi Party as my mate Gus labelled them.
He died, and although I miss him a lot, I’m glad he wasn’t around to see that agreement broken.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Ref working for small owner managed businesses - I learnt a lesson that they make their own rules up and can do because its their business. I am sure many are fair and competent, but when they are not it can be painful, if you are used to working in a larger organisation with rules and regulations and more professional managers.
My experience in England is that politics swings, but that there are few permanent changes since the early 1950s. UKIP did appear 15 years ago but they are now finished. In Scotland the SNP has become the dominant force by taking most of Labour's support.
In the 1970s the country was very evenly balanced, in 1979 the Tories got ahead and stayed ahead in the 1980s based on Thatcher cult with a swing to more capitalist values and some nice giveways (heavily discounted council owned properties, cheap privitisations). When the giveaways stopped the indifferent results of the Thatcherite years came home to roost, voting swung back to the centrist policies of pre-1979 and with a rebranding of Labour as New (cool) Labour again with Blair as the New Thatcher like figure. The Liberals (and later Greens) became to me more a left wing party than Labour in the Blair/Brown years. Labour under Corbyn was left wing, first time since Foot and gained 41% vote, but that could be the high tide mark for a solid left wing party (excluding Scotland).
It appears Labour are now very much aiming for the Centre vote, avoiding much policy and having a very quiet leader (at present). Allowing Tories to shot themselves time and time again with sleaze and too many poor policy decisions based on too much self interest of their "friends" (asset rich over 55s) - examples low tax on inheritance, pensions, capital gains (until last budget). They have encouraged older people to buy extra properties, squeezing young people out and that is starting to have a big effect now, especially when they have limited new build (of all types). The people now entering their 50s are not as asset/pension rich as in previous years e.g someone born in 1953 compared with someone born in 1973. This will have political voting implications, to me.
My experience in England is that politics swings, but that there are few permanent changes since the early 1950s. UKIP did appear 15 years ago but they are now finished. In Scotland the SNP has become the dominant force by taking most of Labour's support.
In the 1970s the country was very evenly balanced, in 1979 the Tories got ahead and stayed ahead in the 1980s based on Thatcher cult with a swing to more capitalist values and some nice giveways (heavily discounted council owned properties, cheap privitisations). When the giveaways stopped the indifferent results of the Thatcherite years came home to roost, voting swung back to the centrist policies of pre-1979 and with a rebranding of Labour as New (cool) Labour again with Blair as the New Thatcher like figure. The Liberals (and later Greens) became to me more a left wing party than Labour in the Blair/Brown years. Labour under Corbyn was left wing, first time since Foot and gained 41% vote, but that could be the high tide mark for a solid left wing party (excluding Scotland).
It appears Labour are now very much aiming for the Centre vote, avoiding much policy and having a very quiet leader (at present). Allowing Tories to shot themselves time and time again with sleaze and too many poor policy decisions based on too much self interest of their "friends" (asset rich over 55s) - examples low tax on inheritance, pensions, capital gains (until last budget). They have encouraged older people to buy extra properties, squeezing young people out and that is starting to have a big effect now, especially when they have limited new build (of all types). The people now entering their 50s are not as asset/pension rich as in previous years e.g someone born in 1953 compared with someone born in 1973. This will have political voting implications, to me.
Nero
Well-known member
On the subject of Thatcher give aways. Right to Buy is one of the biggest disasters of neoliberalism. Whole swathes of decent local authority houses now owned often by private landlords. It was a deliberate policy to transfer wealth from public to private.
A few months ago Starmer was saying he wants harsher prison sentences for environmental protesters than the tories were threatening.
Few months before that his shadow chancellor Reeves was criticising the tories policy to send asylum seekers to Rwanda because she didn't think they were doing it efficiently enough! Too long of a queue of people being sent was her problem with it!
You say it's not true to call him a tory, well what is he then? You can't think he's a socialist. Looking at his history as a prosecutor and how he's been as leader of the party he's certainly no liberal. Trying to overturn brexit back in 2018-19, his reforms to Labours leadership rules, and his disregard for the party's members show he's not fussed about democracy.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Do you think the environmental protestors should be allowed to block roads like the M25?
Perhaps given his previous position as the country’s chief prosecutor, and given the type of cases he’s had to deal with and the access to the kind of of information, both written and verbal, he’s been supplied with and aware of. Possibly a lot of it in some instances secret and not to be divulged. He is aware of something things about which others have, even without that kind of insight, have been coming round more firmly to the belief that it doesn’t in our constitutional arrangements actually exist. Democracy, that is?