"Nobody in their right mind would buy a used EV..."

[Andy_W]

yeah its that all encompassing part I think will take the time. It should be said though that there are still issues with self drive, unsurprisingly they are lot better on motorways/highways than they are, for example, navigating town centres.

Long trips and localised trips on tighter roads are going to probably need two different solutions I think.

It might make sense one day, on long trips to just get a taxi to a hub (conventional or driverless) and then have driverless busses, cars or vans etc just going up and down motorways, to other hubs, leaving every 5 minutes or whatever, then get a taxi the other end, and somehow that all be linked into one app, so there's no messing about, it just tracks where you are and deals with it accordingly. It doesn't make much sense to have loads of individual cars going up and down on long trips, and is super inefficient for the grid overall.

The driverless busses/ vans/ vehicles going up and down motorways and a-roads could deal with traffic and closer proximity to each other much easier than trains could, and should be much less traffic too. Might free up just using train lines for higher speeds if they can bring the tracks up to higher spec, and negate all the link ups with slow trains and tracks, which grinds it all to a halt.

Can see some big, big changes coming in the next 10 years to transport overall.

 

[Andy_W]

If I was a taxi driver I wouldn't worry about being out of a job anytime soon.

We must be a good 20 years away for the self drive technology to fully replace humans behind the wheel, if we ever get there at all.

Maybe in the US where their cities are loads younger than ours and have been designed around the car then I could see it happening but not in the UK.

I think 10 years max, for the vast majority of trips, where you can just walk to the nearest half decent road and it drops you off at the nearest half decent road. Might even be 5 years for that, and then the rest largely gets solved within 10 years.

It's maybe not so much the quality or dimensions of the roads, it's the quality of the mapping, once the mapping is sorted the localised obstructions can be dealt with on the fly for 95% of the roads I expect.

Can't rely on GPS in cities, as it's not accurate enough, not using conventional GPS etc, so the US cities which have full driverless taxis have this mapped out already, to centimetre accuracy apparently.

Not sure what they would do about our roads where they're only wide enough for one car, but take traffic in both directions, but if humans can figure that out on the fly, then AI probably can. We might just go to more one way roads etc, easier to do when there's far less cars needed and parked up everywhere etc.

 

[SmallTown]

Not a coherent answer but hey ho. I'm not fighting anything I'm actually considering an EV for Mrs C but given that its purchase price is 150% of the same ICE model I consider the premium too high at the moment.

However what I would ask is that people seriously consider the bigger picture. We have built an entire society around the ICE because it has given us flexible, relatively cheap mass personal transport. It has influenced where we live, where we work, where we shop, how we take our leisure so the move to EV is a big deal.

Try and think outside your own world particularly in terms of wealth, living arrangements and how you use your vehicle. To be honest if your vehicle is company owned, either your own or one you work for, you're not in a position to comment on one of the major EV issues for an awful lot of the population. I had to smile at the comment about the battery for a £90k vehicle only costing £9k so it's not such a big deal, talk about tone deaf. As things stand, and I live in hope of further developments and improvements, we are heading for a 2 tier society when it comes to personal transport.

It was a coherent answer. If you didn't understand I shall clarify. It's odd how the anti EV argument will tell you EV are too expensive and too cheap at the same time.

We have built our society around the car, not ICE. Please explain to me the ways in which it's an ICE society rather than a car one?

 

[Glover_elbow]

Looking for a cheapish motor for my daughter when she turns 17. Are there any relatively cheap small evs or is ice still the best option for a new young driver

 

[Andy_W]

Looking for a cheapish motor for my daughter when she turns 17. Are there any relatively cheap small evs or is ice still the best option for a new young driver

Depends what you're wanting to spend but for EV I imagine something like a leaf might be your best bet, they've been out ages so might be the cheapest? See how they compare to ICE the same age etc, and figure out what they each cost to run.

Insurance is absolutely stupid for young drivers, and they'll use anything to try and justify jacking up the cost, so maybe get quotes before committing to specific cars, unless you're going to be adding her on your insurance or she's adding you onto hers etc.

Check how a leaf charges too though, they might be Chademo, and you might want to stick to type 2 as more cars are type 2/ CCS these days, and there's more type 2/ CCS chargers etc. Some leafs might even have both, but only take type 2 home charging etc.

 

[m3t4tr0n]

Looking for a cheapish motor for my daughter when she turns 17. Are there any relatively cheap small evs or is ice still the best option for a new young driver

Not entirely dissimilar to the conversation about self drive, for me the big question is is she happy with an automatic license or is the plan to do lessons in a manual too. In principle the need for manual is dropping like a stone. I was in a similar position about 18 months ago, we chose to get a used ice car (VW Up) so she at least had experience in a manual and also because it was the best we could find for insurance.

 

[SilentProf]

Not entirely dissimilar to the conversation about self drive, for me the big question is is she happy with an automatic license or is the plan to do lessons in a manual too. In principle the need for manual is dropping like a stone. I was in a similar position about 18 months ago, we chose to get a used ice car (VW Up) so she at least had experience in a manual and also because it was the best we could find for insurance.

It’s worth factoring in that the insurance cost is higher if you only have an automatic licence.

 

[BoroMart]

well petrol pumps rather than stations would be a better comparison to charge points, and then factor in say 2 minutes to fill up with fuel vs 30 mins to do a top up charge, and also factor in range of say 250 average for EV (although 30mins prob only gets you 150 miles) vs 2 mins fuel top up get you maybe 400 miles?

if you are going to do that, then you also have to factor in the high % of charging done at home, I'd guess it's still better for EVs. I think I've waited twice for a free public charger in the last 3 years, I've lost count of how many times I've had to queue at a petrol station.

 

[Ingleby_Flash]

I can answer that, since I actually managed to do it last year.

I ran out of charge literally 200 yards from my house about 1am. I have a home charger. Dumb me just trying to push it a little too far. I once ran out of petrol a similar distance from a petrol station doing the same thing!

Anyway, the car comes with free roadside (and home) assistance. I pressed the emergency call button in my car which connected me to the RAC. They asked a few questions to see how dangerous the place was I'd broken down, made sure I wasn't vulnerable eg a single woman, had children or frail people in the car that kind of thing. I'm a healthy single bloke, car was safe in a layby and I could walk the 200 yards to my house. The impression I got was they would have turned up pretty quickly but because there was no urgency they told me it would be a couple of hours and they'd ring me when a few minutes away so I could meet them at the car. This they did about 3am.

The mechanic didn't have a mobile charger, which they are supposed to have but still mostly didn't in the Middlesbrough neck of the woods apparently, so he had to take me to the nearest charging point. This would have been my house, but would have been slightly awkward for his vehicle due to the angle of our drive and the other cars parked on the road, so he took me to the Bannatynes nearby. The only problem was that once my electric car shuts down completely out of charge those wheels aren't moving at all, they are locked, so to get it on the trailer he had to put chocs under the wheels and winch it on, which took about half an hour and a bit of effort. Once at the charge point he waited a few minutes to make sure it was charging up ok.

Lesson learned and I won't do it again, but at least I know the whole service was spot on.

Oh, it didn't cost me anything. It was all part of the deal when I bought the car, Free lifetime roadside assistance that if I ever run out of charge they will get me to the nearest working charge point. If it happens, I just press the Vauxhall connect button in the car and they put me through to the RAC. That minimises any range anxiety. Still best to not be a d1ck though.

Wow, never thought of the wheels locking solid. Sounds like a mistake you only once.

 

[Glover_elbow]

Depends what you're wanting to spend but for EV I imagine something like a leaf might be your best bet, they've been out ages so might be the cheapest? See how they compare to ICE the same age etc, and figure out what they each cost to run.

Insurance is absolutely stupid for young drivers, and they'll use anything to try and justify jacking up the cost, so maybe get quotes before committing to specific cars, unless you're going to be adding her on your insurance or she's adding you onto hers etc.

Check how a leaf charges too though, they might be Chademo, and you might want to stick to type 2 as more cars are type 2/ CCS these days, and there's more type 2/ CCS chargers etc. Some leafs might even have both, but only take type 2 home charging etc.

Plenty of Renault zoes about as well

 

[m3t4tr0n]

Plenty of Renault zoes about as well

I still miss my Zoe, was a great little car. My Boss has just bought an old 2nd hand 20kWh one as a town runner, he's also loving it.

 

[HolgateCorner]

I’ve had my electric car 4 weeks tomorrow, I’ve already done a few long journeys and it has been no problem.

I think you need to be able to charge at home unless you don’t do much mileage but apart from that I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend.

 

[MolteniArcore]

It might make sense one day, on long trips to just get a taxi to a hub (conventional or driverless) and then have driverless busses, cars or vans etc just going up and down motorways, to other hubs, leaving every 5 minutes or whatever, then get a taxi the other end, and somehow that all be linked into one app, so there's no messing about, it just tracks where you are and deals with it accordingly. It doesn't make much sense to have loads of individual cars going up and down on long trips, and is super inefficient for the grid overall.

Sounds like getting a train!

 

[ThatFragranceGuy]

it's certainly a possibility... I am not sure we will quite get there in my lifetime, but its not out of the question. Regardless I do think that car ownership makes less and less sense in the modern age. Most people just need something that works, reliably ... so why buy and take on all the risk yourself. These things are always better managed in large volumes having organisations spread the risk and manage the stock.

I've seen videos on YouTube where there are self driving ipaces. Huge lidar and camera arrays on it so it isn't stylish, but it's already out there - this video shows how it works and this is a year ago. Tech will advance rapidly but here it's only in premapped areas

 

[Redpete]

These EV threads are all well and good for those who can afford new or nearly new but what about the vast majority.
The average age of a motor vehicle on the roads at the moment is just under 9 years old.
You can easily get a 9 year old ford focus for under 5 grand how does the average driver get an EV for 9 year old ford focus prices?

 

[m3t4tr0n]

These EV threads are all well and good for those who can afford new or nearly new but what about the vast majority.
The average age of a motor vehicle on the roads at the moment is just under 9 years old.
You can easily get a 9 year old ford focus for under 5 grand how does the average driver get an EV for 9 year old ford focus prices?

This is still new technology, it will take time for enough models to appear on the market of that age. All that said though you will definitely find older EVs for that kind of money. I can see at least 5 within 30 miles of my house in Stockton on auto trader. Yes 5 isn't 500 or 5000 but it is early days

 

[m3t4tr0n]

I've seen videos on YouTube where there are self driving ipaces. Huge lidar and camera arrays on it so it isn't stylish, but it's already out there - this video shows how it works and this is a year ago. Tech will advance rapidly but here it's only in premapped areas

Yes I'm aware. Tesla have IMO made a mistake by dropping lidar and going fully visual, however time will tell

 

[ThatFragranceGuy]

These EV threads are all well and good for those who can afford new or nearly new but what about the vast majority.
The average age of a motor vehicle on the roads at the moment is just under 9 years old.
You can easily get a 9 year old ford focus for under 5 grand how does the average driver get an EV for 9 year old ford focus prices?

We got a lease because it was the same cost as financing a used car, plus it includes insurance servicing tyres windscreen breakdown cover etc - total peace of mind.

Yes, you'd own the used car after the finance is paid off, but you'd also have to do servicing, MOT's and risk of catastrophic failure. It's a balance and down to what you value I guess.

I've got a 16 year old ford focus and it's been an absolute battler and it's done me tons of favours over the years but bits a dull car to drive and they're not known to be that reliable. Realistically someone looking at 9 year Old Ford focuses is probably going to struggle to get a decent EV, but there will be ones out there.

That said you can already get decent EV's that cost a lot before for 15k-20k that aren't anywhere near 9 year old, and they'll probably be a lot more fun to drive

I bought my focus one year old for £8.5k, that doesn't get you much focus now tbh - in fact looking on auto trader focus for 8-8.5k are mostly 2015-2017 models so 9 years old and 40-80k miles.

Consider cost of ownership also, we've paid £174 in electric since March and done 4600 miles - 3p a mile. My focus gets 31 mpg if we assume 141p per litre a calculator tells me that same travel would have cost us £792. My focus also does 0-60 in about 3-5 business days

 

[Redpete]

This is still new technology, it will take time for enough models to appear on the market of that age. All that said though you will definitely find older EVs for that kind of money. I can see at least 5 within 30 miles of my house in Stockton on auto trader. Yes 5 isn't 500 or 5000 but it is early days

Its not new technology my Dad was riving an EV at work 50 years ago.

According to auto trader there are under 200 EV'S for less than £5 compared too 75'000 diesel and petrol cars.

Its going to take years to get to similar figures of EV's available for the average driver.

 

[m3t4tr0n]

Its not new technology my Dad was riving an EV at work 50 years ago.

According to auto trader there are under 200 EV'S for less than £5 compared too 75'000 diesel and petrol cars.

Its going to take years to get to similar figures of EV's available for the average driver.

As far as a mass market / mass produced consumer level automobile level product it is absolutely very new. Years would be correct. That's how long it takes for cars to get old which needs to happen to grow that market. I haven't seen anyone state that we have a solution for everyone yet, I certainly haven't. But it will get there and quicker than you think. It's already come on in leaps and bounds and will continue to do so.