Neil Warnock on Brexit: I cannot wait to get out of the EU!

[Adi_Dem]

Oh righto, No deal has happened then has it and these ongoing talks can’t be happening at present. Oh, and these reports coming from Brussels that Barnier Is willing to soften his demands to break the deadlock in some areas must be false then, fair enough, thanks for putting me right

No problem.

 

[Redwurzel]

The EU interests to me are not aligned enough with those of the UK to make membership worthwhile. I like the idea of collaboration on joint projects and working peacefully together to avoid conflict, but the price of EU membership is high.

For example 40% of the EU budget is spent on agriculture while agriculture is around only 1% of the UK's economic activity. People say Germany is very similar, no it is not it has has much greater agricultural sector. It is also losing manufacturing jobs, look at any Bosch device and see where it was made. it will probably say made in the EU, many of its products are no longer made in Germany and unrest is raising its head with the rise of AfL (a Far Right party) 10% of German MPs? The EU has bailed out the National debts in some member countries such as Greece to keep them in the Euro, but these debts don't go away for ever they become the debts of all EU states. The EU does its best to keep everyone together, but it costs, because many member states are so different. Some are still recovering from the effects 45 years of communism (or fascism) and Soviet control while others are very advanced economically.

I hear and read remarks like I can't travel freely in the EU now or I can't work in the EU, both are generally untrue. People can stay for holidays etc in any EU country (ignoring CoVid19) and work in any EU country with a visa.

As said people in certain areas of the UK have been left out to dry and no English based voter has had an opportunity to show their disapproval as all the major UK parties have showed a lack of real interest. The vote in 2016 at least showed there was a problem which many people in other areas seemed unaware of. If the vote had been different I guess everything would have gone as before and places like British Steel (new) would gone the same way as SSI. The EU has taken the brunt of anger, but it is part of the establishment and possibly did not do enough to highlight to the residents of places like Middlesbrough what it was doing for the town in the 23 years from 1993 to 2016.

I was 50/50 on the vote, but in the end if I voted Remain, nothing would have changed and I asked myself would I be happy with that. I suppose if was brought up in the South East and I was living in Richmond upon Thames in a £1m flat that I bought for £60k in 1986, had a cushy job in financial services and relied on an array of cheap Rumanian and Bulgarian trades people and cleaners to keep my flat spic and span, I would have voted Remain.

 

[hopesoboro]

It never looked "really likely" that Leave would win. I was surprised and delighted when the vote came back. Turkish positioning did not change anything. Dirty tricks were played on both sides of the campaign; it seems they always are these days.
As regards veto and referendums, let's remember there was no referendum for Lisbon or Maastricht. Why are you so sure Adi that there would be one for future seismic changes. In my opinion there would not be.

Like so many things on this board it is assumed that how people feel about groups of very different things are all exactly the same.

The EU interests to me are not aligned enough with those of the UK to make membership worthwhile. I like the idea of collaboration on joint projects and working peacefully together to avoid conflict, but the price of EU membership is high.

For example 40% of the EU budget is spent on agriculture while agriculture is around only 1% of the UK's economic activity. People say Germany is very similar, no it is not it has has much greater agricultural sector. It is also losing manufacturing jobs, look at any Bosch device and see where it was made. it will probably say made in the EU, many of its products are no longer made in Germany and unrest is raising its head with the rise of AfL (a Far Right party) 10% of German MPs? The EU has bailed out the National debts in some member countries such as Greece to keep them in the Euro, but these debts don't go away for ever they become the debts of all EU states. The EU does its best to keep everyone together, but it costs, because many member states are so different. Some are still recovering from the effects 45 years of communism (or fascism) and Soviet control while others are very advanced economically.

I hear and read remarks like I can't travel freely in the EU now or I can't work in the EU, both are generally untrue. People can stay for holidays etc in any EU country (ignoring CoVid19) and work in any EU country with a visa.

As said people in certain areas of the UK have been left out to dry and no English based voter has had an opportunity to show their disapproval as all the major UK parties have showed a lack of real interest. The vote in 2016 at least showed there was a problem which many people in other areas seemed unaware of. If the vote had been different I guess everything would have gone as before and places like British Steel (new) would gone the same way as SSI. The EU has taken the brunt of anger, but it is part of the establishment and possibly did not do enough to highlight to the residents of places like Middlesbrough what it was doing for the town in the 23 years from 1993 to 2016.

I was 50/50 on the vote, but in the end if I voted Remain, nothing would have changed and I asked myself would I be happy with that. I suppose if was brought up in the South East and I was living in Richmond upon Thames in a £1m flat that I bought for £60k in 1986, had a cushy job in financial services and relied on an array of cheap Rumanian and Bulgarian trades people and cleaners to keep my flat spic and span, I would have voted Remain.

Perhaps we should increase our agricultural input.
See the Brethren are desperate to stick together!

 

[boromike85]

You cannot say with any degree of certainty that Turkey has no impact. The fact that so much money was spent on social media ads in the last 7 days and that such campaign mirrored a swing in voter intention suggests it might.

This is true. You cannot say with any certainty that Turkey had no impact. However, it also true that you cannot say with any certainty that Turkey will never join the EU. At present it is close to impossible but there are a number of conditions that have to be met for a country to be allowed to join the EU and it is perfectly feasible that with a regime change in Turkey to a more progressive and less dictatorial leader that they would meet the criteria if they wished.

We've had this discussion many times before. Turkey is the scare story but Romania, Bulgaria & Croatia are recent examples of countries joining, most likely against the UK public interest, without a referendum offered. There is no benefit to the majority of people on this country from adding on nations that are net receivers and that would be net immigrants to the UK and yet we failed to use our veto.

There is also no point having a veto if those in charge don't use it when the people want them to. I'm not saying the public would want them to use it to block the above mentioned countries joining, that's just a guess.

My position is similar to what @indeedido mentioned earlier. There is a lot of good things in being part of the EU but I'd prefer to be trading partners instead of being part of a political union, particularly one where we are required to foot more than our fair share of the bill. There is no reason at all that we can't have a trade deal without being a member, just like Canada or Japan.

 

[Adi_Dem]

This is true. You cannot say with any certainty that Turkey had no impact. However, it also true that you cannot say with any certainty that Turkey will never join the EU. At present it is close to impossible but there are a number of conditions that have to be met for a country to be allowed to join the EU and it is perfectly feasible that with a regime change in Turkey to a more progressive and less dictatorial leader that they would meet the criteria if they wished.

We've had this discussion many times before. Turkey is the scare story but Romania, Bulgaria & Croatia are recent examples of countries joining, most likely against the UK public interest, without a referendum offered. There is no benefit to the majority of people on this country from adding on nations that are net receivers and that would be net immigrants to the UK and yet we failed to use our veto.

There is also no point having a veto if those in charge don't use it when the people want them to. I'm not saying the public would want them to use it to block the above mentioned countries joining, that's just a guess.

My position is similar to what @indeedido mentioned earlier. There is a lot of good things in being part of the EU but I'd prefer to be trading partners instead of being part of a political union, particularly one where we are required to foot more than our fair share of the bill. There is no reason at all that we can't have a trade deal without being a member, just like Canada or Japan.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

We are therefore back to the very much theoretical risk of countries joining the EU that you may or may not have an issue with at some indeterminate point in the future, despite their impact on the UK being laregly immaterial by any analysis. But putting that to one side, what I find interesting is that your version of Brexit is Canada style or Japan style. Some folk now argue (falsely of course) that they wanted a no deal Brexit all along, others voted for Norway or Canada+ or whatever other variant you might want to talk about. All it demonstrates is that there is no mandate for any particular form of Brexit but absolutely and categorically no mandate for a no deal Brexit (given that it was explicitly excluded as a possibility) and which is, by any standards, a disastrous outcome.

 

[LaPennaBianca]

"Romania, Bulgaria & Croatia are recent examples of countries joining, most likely against the UK public interest"

'Most likely' doing a hell of a lot of work here as this is a statement based on absolutely nothing.

 

[boromike85]

"Romania, Bulgaria & Croatia are recent examples of countries joining, most likely against the UK public interest"

'Most likely' doing a hell of a lot of work here as this is a statement based on absolutely nothing.

It is, I said that, it's just a guess but we were never asked. If it had been put to a referendum then what do you think the answer would be and as you would clearly vote to allow them to be EU members, why?

We are therefore back to the very much theoretical risk of countries joining the EU that you may or may not have an issue with at some indeterminate point in the future, despite their impact on the UK being laregly immaterial by any analysis. But putting that to one side, what I find interesting is that your version of Brexit is Canada style or Japan style. Some folk now argue (falsely of course) that they wanted a no deal Brexit all along, others voted for Norway or Canada+ or whatever other variant you might want to talk about. All it demonstrates is that there is no mandate for any particular form of Brexit but absolutely and categorically no mandate for a no deal Brexit (given that it was explicitly excluded as a possibility) and which is, by any standards, a disastrous outcome.

Turkey has nothing to do with my decision. I am only making the point that you can't claim it to be a scare story that is an impossibility just because it is not an immediate possibility. As far as I'm aware, nobody has any faith in our leaders to do what is best for the general public so why would we expect them to make the right decision if they get asked the question? At least leaving the EU takes that decision away from them.

I also am fully aware that no specific type of Brexit has a mandate. It might but we haven't been asked. I do know that remain was ruled out by the referendum so if we had all stopped acting as if it ever will be an option then maybe we'd have not been stuck with No Deal.

 

[Adi_Dem]

It is, I said that, it's just a guess but we were never asked. If it had been put to a referendum then what do you think the answer would be and as you would clearly vote to allow them to be EU members, why?



Turkey has nothing to do with my decision. I am only making the point that you can't claim it to be a scare story that is an impossibility just because it is not an immediate possibility. As far as I'm aware, nobody has any faith in our leaders to do what is best for the general public so why would we expect them to make the right decision if they get asked the question? At least leaving the EU takes that decision away from them.

I also am fully aware that no specific type of Brexit has a mandate. It might but we haven't been asked. I do know that remain was ruled out by the referendum so if we had all stopped acting as if it ever will be an option then maybe we'd have not been stuck with No Deal.

Ah yes, that old chestnut. It’s the fault of others that we’ve ended up here. Of course.

 

[coluka]

Ah yes, that old chestnut. It’s the fault of others that we’ve ended up here. Of course.

You have absolutely no cause to prove we will have a no deal brexit. The Government (that I despise btw) is still negotiating the time to moan is if we have no deal, not now. Panic is a poor negotiating position to hold. The EU regularly take things to the wire, that is their tactic. Fear is one of the best weapons in the world, thats why criminality is often successful.

It really bugs me that people who want democracy wont accept it when it is against there wishes. To denegrate the people that voted for an outcome, that has not yet been decided or even experienced is jumping the gun. We are all right some of the time, we are all wrong some of the time. Just get on with trying to make it work rather than fight it. If it does not work out then we can rejoin. The Tories are the architects, if it fails they fail, we can rejoin if it proves a disaster.
There will be winners and losers in business, just like there would have been if we remained. Support the country as best we can and use your vote at elections. If you do not like the country, then if you can, emigrate, if not live your life in the country we live in and work hard for you and your family with the constraints we have whatever they are. We all have a say, just not THE say.

 

[Erimus74]

You have absolutely no cause to prove we will have a no deal brexit. The Government (that I despise btw) is still negotiating the time to moan is if we have no deal, not now. Panic is a poor negotiating position to hold. The EU regularly take things to the wire, that is their tactic. Fear is one of the best weapons in the world, thats why criminality is often successful.

It really bugs me that people who want democracy wont accept it when it is against there wishes. To denegrate the people that voted for an outcome, that has not yet been decided or even experienced is jumping the gun. We are all right some of the time, we are all wrong some of the time. Just get on with trying to make it work rather than fight it. If it does not work out then we can rejoin. The Tories are the architects, if it fails they fail, we can rejoin if it proves a disaster.
There will be winners and losers in business, just like there would have been if we remained. Support the country as best we can and use your vote at elections. If you do not like the country, then if you can, emigrate, if not live your life in the country we live in and work hard for you and your family with the constraints we have whatever they are. We all have a say, just not THE say.

Good post coluka

 

[Adi_Dem]

You have absolutely no cause to prove we will have a no deal brexit. The Government (that I despise btw) is still negotiating the time to moan is if we have no deal, not now. Panic is a poor negotiating position to hold. The EU regularly take things to the wire, that is their tactic. Fear is one of the best weapons in the world, thats why criminality is often successful.

It really bugs me that people who want democracy wont accept it when it is against there wishes. To denegrate the people that voted for an outcome, that has not yet been decided or even experienced is jumping the gun. We are all right some of the time, we are all wrong some of the time. Just get on with trying to make it work rather than fight it. If it does not work out then we can rejoin. The Tories are the architects, if it fails they fail, we can rejoin if it proves a disaster.
There will be winners and losers in business, just like there would have been if we remained. Support the country as best we can and use your vote at elections. If you do not like the country, then if you can, emigrate, if not live your life in the country we live in and work hard for you and your family with the constraints we have whatever they are. We all have a say, just not THE say.

It wasn't democratic. That's the first thing.

This nonsense about supporting the country, winners and losers either way, I'm sorry, is a crock. And 'if you don't like it, you can move' is equally ridiculous.

Finally, arguing that the EU always takes things to the wire in support of there being a positive end to negotiations fundamentally misunderstands the position adopted by our government in those negotiations.

 

[hopesoboro]

It never looked "really likely" that Leave would win. I was surprised and delighted when the vote came back. Turkish positioning did not change anything. Dirty tricks were played on both sides of the campaign; it seems they always are these days.
As regards veto and referendums, let's remember there was no referendum for Lisbon or Maastricht. Why are you so sure Adi that there would be one for future seismic changes. In my opinion there would not be.

Like so many things on this board it is assumed that how people feel about groups of very different things are all exactly the same.

You have absolutely no cause to prove we will have a no deal brexit. The Government (that I despise btw) is still negotiating the time to moan is if we have no deal, not now. Panic is a poor negotiating position to hold. The EU regularly take things to the wire, that is their tactic. Fear is one of the best weapons in the world, thats why criminality is often successful.

It really bugs me that people who want democracy wont accept it when it is against there wishes. To denegrate the people that voted for an outcome, that has not yet been decided or even experienced is jumping the gun. We are all right some of the time, we are all wrong some of the time. Just get on with trying to make it work rather than fight it. If it does not work out then we can rejoin. The Tories are the architects, if it fails they fail, we can rejoin if it proves a disaster.
There will be winners and losers in business, just like there would have been if we remained. Support the country as best we can and use your vote at elections. If you do not like the country, then if you can, emigrate, if not live your life in the country we live in and work hard for you and your family with the constraints we have whatever they are. We all have a say, just not THE say.

Pinnochio!

 

[indeedido]

[/QUOTE]

We are therefore back to the very much theoretical risk of countries joining the EU that you may or may not have an issue with at some indeterminate point in the future, despite their impact on the UK being laregly immaterial by any analysis. But putting that to one side, what I find interesting is that your version of Brexit is Canada style or Japan style. Some folk now argue (falsely of course) that they wanted a no deal Brexit all along, others voted for Norway or Canada+ or whatever other variant you might want to talk about. All it demonstrates is that there is no mandate for any particular form of Brexit but absolutely and categorically no mandate for a no deal Brexit (given that it was explicitly excluded as a possibility) and which is, by any standards, a disastrous outcome.[/QUOTE]
You say there is categorically no mandate for a no deal Brexit (you know I don't want that and don't think it will happen either) but there is something completely and utterly more relevant and that is there is absolutely no mandate to Remain.

 

[Adi_Dem]

We are therefore back to the very much theoretical risk of countries joining the EU that you may or may not have an issue with at some indeterminate point in the future, despite their impact on the UK being laregly immaterial by any analysis. But putting that to one side, what I find interesting is that your version of Brexit is Canada style or Japan style. Some folk now argue (falsely of course) that they wanted a no deal Brexit all along, others voted for Norway or Canada+ or whatever other variant you might want to talk about. All it demonstrates is that there is no mandate for any particular form of Brexit but absolutely and categorically no mandate for a no deal Brexit (given that it was explicitly excluded as a possibility) and which is, by any standards, a disastrous outcome.[/QUOTE]
You say there is categorically no mandate for a no deal Brexit (you know I don't want that and don't think it will happen either) but there is something completely and utterly more relevant and that is there is absolutely no mandate to Remain.[/QUOTE]

If you ignore the lies, illegality, data protection breaches, external interference, the passing of time and the general election that's definitely true. But I am not even arguing for Remain. That would be pointless. I am arguing against the clusterfuck that has transpired and the almost certain outcome that is heading our way.

 

[coluka]

It wasn't democratic. That's the first thing.

Winners and losers either way, I'm sorry, is a crock.

If you don't like it, you can move is equally ridiculous.

And arguing that the EU always takes things to the wire in support of there being a positive end to negotiations fundamentally misunderstands the position adopted by our government in those negotiations.

Utter b***ks, where did i say if you dont like it just move? Spinning is what you accuse team brexit of, but there you are spinning my words.

You dont think some firms and business will benefit from brexit? Really? Now that is utter crock.

The EU have history of taking things to the wire, its fact.

I think you misunderstand how to negotiate, rather than the governments position. Successful poker players do not show or admit their hand, to do so is Stupid, note the capital S

 

[Muttley]

It really bugs me that people who want democracy wont accept it when it is against there wishes.

A few points

1. Democracy means that I have THE RIGHT to try to get a decision I don't agree with overturned, that is not working against "democracy" it is the very essence of it.

2. The vote itself as has been frequently cited would have been ruled illegal if it had been a "binding" referendum that it wasn't means that it cannot be ruled against. Irony even Alanis wouldn't have mucked up.

3. Hard "Brexit" that we appear to be careering towards was wanted by very few that voted. The 48% were told to "get over it" (again anti-democratic language) it was entirely possible to agree to a soft Brexit with leaving the EU but maintain membership of many beneficial arrangements not least the Customs Union. This was thrown away by Theresa May's "red lines". This clusterfukk is the result of Brexiteers yet already we are being told that it is the intransigence of "Remainers" that are subverting the triumph of our exit.

 

[Adi_Dem]

Utter b***ks, where did i say if you dont like it just move? Spinning is what you accuse team brexit of, but there you are spinning my words.

You dont think some firms and business will benefit from brexit? Really that is utter crock.
The EU have history of taking things to the wire, its fact.

I think you misunderstand how to negotiate rather than the governments position. Successful poker players do not show or admit their hand, to do so is Stupid, note the capital S

That’s hilarious coluka. Seriously funny.

I haven’t spun anything. These are your words:

“If you do not like the country, then if you can, emigrate, if not live your life in the country we live in and work hard for you and your family with the constraints we have whatever they are.”

No, I don’t think many firms or industries will benefit from Brexit and every notable economic impact assessment, including those of this Leave government confirms exactly that.

And I negotiate contracts for a living so seriously don’t try and school me in that. As I said you fundamentally misunderstand the positions adopted by each side, the clear motivations of this government and the history of how we got here if you think this is just brinkmanship.

 

[coluka]

Pinnochio!

Coming from King Peppy thats a compliment

 

[coluka]

That’s hilarious coluka. Seriously funny.

I haven’t spun anything. These are your words:

“If you do not like the country, then if you can, emigrate, if not live your life in the country we live in and work hard for you and your family with the constraints we have whatever they are.”

No, I don’t think many firms or industries will benefit from Brexit and every notable economic impact assessment, including those of this Leave government confirms exactly that.

And I negotiate contracts for a living so seriously don’t try and school me in that. As I said you fundamentally misunderstand the positions adopted by each side, the clear motivations of this government and the history of how we got here if you think this is just brinkmanship.

You said “If you don't like it, you can move is equally ridiculous.” I did not say that though you imply i inferred it was an option for all, i acknowledged it wasn’t, some have emigrated btw, you spun my words and you know it, you just wont admit it. I am happy with my words, your interpretation spun to a different outcome.... Fact

You clearly accept some firms will benefit just not many, time will tell, firms will adapt just like they did when we joined and as rules in the club changed. You know it, i know it, you just like it less, which is fine. Maybe it affects you more, some people oppose change, some embrace it, those that embrace change they can’t affect tend to do better in my experience of life.

I am not trying to school anyone, just give my opinion. Oh by the way I was a negotiator and a reasonably successful one too, so don’t try to pretend you are the Mr big of the negotiating world. From your part blinkered stance you have one opinion, from my part blinkered stance I hold a different view. That is how negotiation works. Brinkmanship is what the EU are doing too you know, you can’t accuse your country of it and seriously suggest the EU are not either, that is utter crock but i am sure you realise that, it just doesn’t suit your angle thats all, but thats fine.

 

[LaPennaBianca]

It is, I said that, it's just a guess but we were never asked. If it had been put to a referendum then what do you think the answer would be and as you would clearly vote to allow them to be EU members, why?



Turkey has nothing to do with my decision. I am only making the point that you can't claim it to be a scare story that is an impossibility just because it is not an immediate possibility. As far as I'm aware, nobody has any faith in our leaders to do what is best for the general public so why would we expect them to make the right decision if they get asked the question? At least leaving the EU takes that decision away from them.

I also am fully aware that no specific type of Brexit has a mandate. It might but we haven't been asked. I do know that remain was ruled out by the referendum so if we had all stopped acting as if it ever will be an option then maybe we'd have not been stuck with No Deal.

People's desires and their interests do not always overlap, to elide the two is disingenuous.

As for the benefit - well, British SMEs can invest in the three new markets, British companies can offer their services without tariffs/non-preferential treatment, British citizens can work there without visas, can rely on their public services without discrimination. Not to mention the cultural benefits of having closer links to these countries.