Muniz

[Nano]

As I‘d said previously…

Final contact for the trip shows Wood’s left elbow to Muniz right shoulder, Wood’s right boot to Muniz’s right boot and possibly even Wood’s right knee into Muniz upper right thigh.

Contrary to what you‘ve been claiming Nano… Muniz was inside the box, his body weight was forward and he wasn’t at a 45° angle with both feet off the floor. A “clear dive” it’s not. It’s a trip!
floofloView attachment 44552

You've provided a picture that shows exactly what I've described. The contact with the legs is outside the box whether Muniz's upper body is in it or not. Both feet are clearly off the ground here and you can see he's already on his way down at this point. His head is much lower than the defender's despite being the same height. His back is already arched in the classic dive position. If you've ever seen anyone genuinely fall over their arms fall forwards. Divers point their chest forwards and flail their arms just like in the picture.

I want us to win. I want a penalty, even an undeserved one, which this would be, but I'd far rather this behaviour wasn't in football at all.

 

[Ravs]

You've provided a picture that shows exactly what I've described. The contact with the legs is outside the box whether Muniz's upper body is in it or not. Both feet are clearly off the ground here and you can see he's already on his way down at this point. His head is much lower than the defender's despite being the same height. His back is already arched in the classic dive position. If you've ever seen anyone genuinely fall over their arms fall forwards. Divers point their chest forwards and flail their arms just like in the picture.

I want us to win. I want a penalty, even an undeserved one, which this would be, but I'd far rather this behaviour wasn't in football at all.

You must be looking at a different picture then…
Muniz’s whole body, not just his upper body, is over the line.
Ergo, Wood’s contact with Muniz’s right foot has got to be inside the box.
Muniz’s right foot is clearly on the ground when Wood’s foot arrives.
Also from the picture, Muniz’s left foot may or may not be off the ground.
At point of contact there is no sign of any 45 degree angle, it looks more like 80 degrees which would account for Muniz’s marginally lower head.
It’s a trip!

 

[Nano]

You must be looking at a different picture then…
Muniz’s whole body, not just his upper body, is over the line.
Ergo, Wood’s contact with Muniz’s right foot has got to be inside the box.
Muniz’s right foot is clearly on the ground when Wood’s foot arrives.
Also from the picture, Muniz’s left foot may or may not be off the ground.
At point of contact there is no sign of any 45 degree angle, it looks more like 80 degrees which would account for Muniz’s marginally lower head.
It’s a trip!

I'm not looking at a different picture but I have seen more than just this picture. I also understand the concept of perspective. You might be surprised to learn that your picture isn't the best angle for viewing where the contact happened. There was a whole segment on it after the game that showed multiple (much better) angles of it. The leg is outside the box.

Get the angle from the sideline and it'll show you.

 

[Ravs]

I'm not looking at a different picture but I have seen more than just this picture. I also understand the concept of perspective. You might be surprised to learn that your picture isn't the best angle for viewing where the contact happened. There was a whole segment on it after the game that showed multiple (much better) angles of it. The leg is outside the box.

Get the angle from the sideline and it'll show you.

Would like to see those “much better” angles then. Hopefully available in freeze-frame to undoubtedly depict the “clear dive”.

 

[BoroMart]

Would like to see those “much better” angles then. Hopefully available in freeze-frame to undoubtedly depict the “clear dive”.

Those images don't exist because it wasn't a clear dive, there may be a moment before the image you displayed, where muniz body angle is more leaning forward, because he's trying to launch away from the defender on his back and it's outside the box, but that doesn't take away what happened 1/2 a second later in the box as proven by your image

 

[Nano]

Straws well and truly clutched here. Of course it matters. You don't try to get away from a defender head first in to the ground. If any contact happened after the dive then it is utterly irrelevant because the offence of dive precedes it.

The images don't exist because even Sky haven't included them in their highlights package but they were shown on TV after the match.

Sol Bamba said it wasn't a penalty. I'll go with his unbiased opinion.

 

[BoroMart]

Straws well and truly clutched here. Of course it matters. You don't try to get away from a defender head first in to the ground. If any contact happened after the dive then it is utterly irrelevant because the offence of dive precedes it.

he didn't hit the ground until well into the box after contact. So he can't have committed the offence of "dived" before he actually hit the deck.....and of course, his right foot had been swiped away at that point. You are arguing that black is white, he was fouled, anywhere else on teh pitch it wouldn't even be questioned and it shouldn't in this situation, ref bottled it.

Sol Bamba said it wasn't a penalty. I'll go with his unbiased opinion.

he said as a defender he doesn't think it, so he admitted his bias.

 

[Nano]

he didn't hit the ground until well into the box after contact. So he can't have committed the offence of "dived" before he actually hit the deck.....and of course, his right foot had been swiped away at that point. You are arguing that black is white, he was fouled, anywhere else on teh pitch it wouldn't even be questioned and it shouldn't in this situation, ref bottled it.


he said as a defender he doesn't think it, so he admitted his bias.

The diving starts when the dive starts, not when you hit the deck. FFS, no wonder you don't know what you're arguing about.

 

[BoroMart]

The diving starts when the dive starts, not when you hit the deck. FFS, no wonder you don't know what you're arguing about.

wow, he's a special player that can defy gravity and dive for 3 seconds haha

 

[BoroMart]

I've just watched, watched and watched again. from 3 angles.

At no point is Muniz at 45 degrees before getting kicked, the reason he is leaning forward and looking off balance, is that the defender has his forearm under Muniz armpit and shoves him off balance, then the defender kicks his ankle.

 

[BoroMart]

and you can see the push under the armpit very clear from this angle that unbalances Muniz. BEnt left arm from defender in first shot, Muniz arm by his side.


Second shot defender has pushed Muniz armpit unbalancing him, defender straight arm, and Muniz arm pushed upwards.

it then just takes a slight kick on the ankle/achilles to send an already unbalanced Muniz over.

 

[Nano]

and you can see the push under the armpit very clear from this angle that unbalances Muniz. BEnt left arm from defender in first shot, Muniz arm by his side.

View attachment 44587
Second shot defender has pushed Muniz armpit unbalancing him, defender straight arm, and Muniz arm pushed upwards.
View attachment 44588
it then just takes a slight kick on the ankle/achilles to send an already unbalanced Muniz over.
View attachment 44590

Exactly like I said. Felt contact from the arm, which was not worthy of a foul, and went down looking for a penalty. Contact was made with the leg when he was already on his way down so it's irrelevant. Look at his body in that final screenshot. Back arched, arms flailing in the classic dive pose.

The contact from the arm was outside the box so even if it was a foul, which it wasn't, it was outside the box.

Why not show the video? You can make any conclusion you want from screenshots about "clearly unbalanced". I watched it and he clearly wasn't unbalanced. It was two players fairly jostling. The angle of the body from Muniz wasn't from a push, it was just the way he controlled the ball that was behind him and changed direction.

There's a reason that nobody is mentioning the "penalty" in any of the reports and it's not because it's a conspiracy. It just wasn't worth discussion because it definitely wasn't a penalty.

 

[BoroMart]

Exactly like I said. Felt contact from the arm, which was not worthy of a foul,

I agree the push alone wasn't worthy of a foul, it was just on the border of acceptable contact, but it was forceful and pushed Muniz into an off balance position. But it was that combined with the second contact, and in fact the second contact on the ankle alone that made it a foul.

Contact was made with the leg when he was already on his way down so it's irrelevant.

he was struggling to stay upright after the push, so completely relevant. Once the kick on the ankle occurs that's a clear penalty. If he doesn't want to give the penalty then don't kick the player.

Why not show the video?

Posting any images on here is painful enough, let alone trying to post a video

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, but bookmarked.

 

[Ravs]

So much for the freeze-frames then, now Nano wants us back on video.

Thank you for your analysis, BoroMart.

I too surrender to the expert who has clearly demonstrated his intimate knowledge of diving.

 

[Nano]

So much for the freeze-frames then, now Nano wants us back on video.

Thank you for your analysis, BoroMart.

I too surrender to the expert who has clearly demonstrated his intimate knowledge of diving.

There's a reason we watch video and don't just look at pictures. One is a far superior method of getting the full context and reality across than the other.

I'll break it down into something simple to digest. As Boromart helpfully mentioned the contact with the arm wasn't a foul. It did not cause him to go to ground so at that point there had been no foul and he was still outside the box.

I agree the push alone wasn't worthy of a foul

Muniz was on his way to the ground when the contact on the ankle came, as clearly visible in your helpful screenshot above where both legs were already behind him, which is clearly not the usual way people run, his back was arched and his arms were flailing in the classic "please give me a penalty, look how convincing my dive is" pose.

What caused this decent to the ground? We've already determined above it wasn't the "push" so Muniz has chosen to go to ground for some other reason. I think there's a name for that action.


Contact is indeed made, still outside the box so definitely not a penalty anyway, but as it happens after Muniz's self-propelled groundwards movement it is not the cause of the journey to the ground and is therefore not a foul.

Play on, luckily no booking (because we've given up trying to prevent cheating anyway) and no more discussion from the referee or players or manager or any of the match reports because it definitely wasn't a penalty.

 

[Ravs]

There's a reason we watch video and don't just look at pictures. One is a far superior method of getting the full context and reality across than the other.

I'll break it down into something simple to digest. As Boromart helpfully mentioned the contact with the arm wasn't a foul. It did not cause him to go to ground so at that point there had been no foul and he was still outside the box.

Muniz was on his way to the ground when the contact on the ankle came, as clearly visible in your helpful screenshot above where both legs were already behind him, which is clearly not the usual way people run, his back was arched and his arms were flailing in the classic "please give me a penalty, look how convincing my dive is" pose.

What caused this decent to the ground? We've already determined above it wasn't the "push" so Muniz has chosen to go to ground for some other reason. I think there's a name for that action.


Contact is indeed made, still outside the box so definitely not a penalty anyway, but as it happens after Muniz's self-propelled groundwards movement it is not the cause of the journey to the ground and is therefore not a foul.

Play on, luckily no booking (because we've given up trying to prevent cheating anyway) and no more discussion from the referee or players or manager or any of the match reports because it definitely wasn't a penalty.

We’ve quit. Please lay off.

 

[Marty79]

You think Muniz would want to be here permanently? I think he can do, and will, do better.

He can’t be enjoying playing in this team. He’s probably already regretting wasting a season.

Taking about when NW was here. Not now..

 

[Marvanelli]

He's been one of the few shining lights from the start of this season.

He is such a good striker.

I'd say he's the best striker we've had since Bamford...and that's based on a small handful of appearances.

Saying that, it wouldn't have took a lot to be better than the last 4/5 seasons worth of absolute trash we've had playing up top.

 

[asredastheycome]

and you can see the push under the armpit very clear from this angle that unbalances Muniz. BEnt left arm from defender in first shot, Muniz arm by his side.

View attachment 44587
Second shot defender has pushed Muniz armpit unbalancing him, defender straight arm, and Muniz arm pushed upwards.
View attachment 44588
it then just takes a slight kick on the ankle/achilles to send an already unbalanced Muniz over.
View attachment 44590

That's a penna

 

[Andy_W]

Interesting this isn't it. Half the other threads on the board are critical of this set up where the club's team identify players rather than the manager. Whereas this is one where we're lamenting the manager for not listening to them. Maybe they do actually know a bit what they're looking for.

We could have two more great strikers sitting around doing nothing in Hoppe and Forss.

It's maybe half and half to me, or some sort of mixture.

Wilder is identifying positions we want to strengthen, that's for sure, then the club goes out to find some options and Wilder says yes/ no/ better than nothing.
Muniz, Giles, Steffen, Lenihan - Yes, as they've started every game they've been available
Better than nothing - Clarke (clearly not first choice of who we wanted), Mowatt, Luongo, Smith
No - ?

Then the club are identifying some younger prospects, who could pay off, we need to do this as well, so we're more sustainable. I doubt Wilder is all that interested in the future, he'd be more concerned about the now I expect.
In this category, I would say: Roberts, Forss, Hoppe from this year, and last year Payero, Munce, Ikpeazu, Olusanya, McGree

None of those development players from this year have been first choice, and of last year there's only McGree, but even he wasn't a guaranteed starter when we had Tav, Crooks and Howson fit.

Then areas what we wanted which we didn't get:
Starting striker/ No 10 (buy)
Centre/ Holding midfielder (buy)
Tav replacement (buy)

What is interesting, is that we've not spent much money (or anything) on players who are guaranteed to start, or who would have been our first choices.

I don't think Wilder would have had much of a hand in the Jan transfer window, as he hadn't been here that long, so we were probably looking at a previously established list.