Michael_Vronsky
Well-known member
Thank you Sir. It's great to know that there are people like you and many others who are good, decent people. Respect to you.
Millwall fans booing players taking the knee
- Thread starter JM14
- Start date
Thank you Sir. It's great to know that there are people like you and many others who are good, decent people. Respect to you.
indeedido
Well-known member
Michael I really hope you and your family remain in your country and that behaviour continues to improve.
I am certain it largely is doing so and will definitely continue to.
Don't let the bullies and the bigots even appear to win.
Stay put.
Michael_Vronsky
Well-known member
coluka
Well-known member
You and your wife’s experiences are clearly truly terrible and have no place in any society, decent or otherwise. Clearly they are sadly replicated by some people the nation over. I do doubt that anyone on this thread would feel your experiences are anything other than deplorable, but obviously can’t be 100% sure.
I appreciate your experiences are far more cogent than most of us will ever encounter or at times even recognise and that must be a hard an unwarranted cross for you both to bear at times. Your wife’s role provides a vital service to all in your community, but as you will be acutely aware, should be totally irrelevant anyway, unfortunately some will just see the uniform and not the caring person behind it and away from work, some sadly will not even see that.
Racism in any form is sickening and should never be excused, but I do feel strongly it needs to be understood to try to change mindsets. I really do not know what the answer is. There clearly is no silver bullet and I doubt it will ever be eradicated, sadly. Legislation and policing of it is essential, but its only one thing, punishment is only a small part of the complexity. Punishment alone does not alter mindsets. We all have a duty to deal with it but like any form of discrimination or crime, many have strong opinions, but opinion and action are two very different things and not harmonised or practised that well in the real world away from social media.
Michael_Vronsky
Well-known member
But it has to come from within, it really does. You can sit someone down and try to make them see sense but as I said above, it's endemic amongst some. They really believe that other races are subservient to them.
I've tried, I really have but I see the same things coming from the same families who then pass on their beliefs to the young ones in their extended families.
My son, who fought back, once, and really give someone a hiding (we're all martial artist practitioners) and he was expelled whilst the racist youths were treated as victims. Okay, he shouldn't have done what he did but hearing his mother abused was too much.
Again, I'm not sure how we make people 'understand' but I hope you're wrong and I'm all ears in looking for solutions.
Laughing
Well-known member
One of the posts things I have found during my life is that all predominantly white countries have racism to some extent or another. Travelling around the world it doesn't seem to be as prevalent in non white societies. India is racist against Pakistan and vice versa but for some very good reasons. A colleague described Pakistan as troublesome neighbours.
I am not suggesting that tyne countries don't have other problems mysogyny for example. Racism tends to be a white pursuit, by and large.
I am not suggesting that tyne countries don't have other problems mysogyny for example. Racism tends to be a white pursuit, by and large.
Michael_Vronsky
Well-known member
I've never been called a 'white b****d' in any other nation on earth and I'm being totally honest.
indeedido
Well-known member
That is the quote I strongly disagree with.
But you know that, right Muttley...
I couldn't disagree more.
I think the young are leading the charge and that absolutely rightly, there is less and less racist beliefs, action and tolerance of it.
There are a louder group of those with horrible views, but with every week, month and year they find it more difficult to get traction or support. They are becoming parodies or caricatures of themselves; impossible to miss, but without humour.
The sort of mindless scum that would indoctrinate a young child like in that video posted on here are finding nothing but disgust and condemnation.
To say we are more racist as a society and country today is in my opinion simply not true.
We have a long way still to go, but we are making progress and we will continue to do so.
coluka
Well-known member
Oh I agree it is endemic in some people, some families, some communities even. It is learned behaviour though. As we all know, people are not born racist, it is developed behaviour within their personal family, friendship and community bubbles. It is not always a given though and I do see hope in younger people that more are prepared to say enough is enough. Change can never happen soon enough in this area. Education, fairer societies, stronger sentences, improved life chances and more of us in real life stopping ‘crossing the road‘ will help in varying degrees, generational evolution over time will hopefully keep the wheels moving in the right direction, hopefully additional ways to speed up the necessary change(s) can be effected.
Michael_Vronsky
Well-known member
Agreed. And I do think that we really need to step up and record or try to intervene. There are too many who 'allow' this to flourish too. Don't want to get involved... it's not their problem type thing.
And yes, I have hope for the younger generations. The world really is a beautiful, wondrous place with so many warm people. These people who boo and snarl and make racist comments could learn something by actually visiting. You never know, they might actually like it. So perhaps that's where education can come up. Hopefully people may decide to educate themselves instead of being told it's wrong.
Pak_Doo_Ik
Well-known member
I have just had a look aon the Millwall forum amd to say their mood has changed is an understatement, they have gone from clapping and supporting the players if they link arms to don't boo if they take the knee, just boo them everytime they touch the ball. One message even says, we will see who wants to leave the club as they will be the ones kneeling. The world is a strange place
Muttley
Well-known member
OK I see what you mean. I honestly didn't because it wasn't meant in that way. It was a throw away comment that was meant to show that Black people are no different from us and though they have endured centuries of prejudice and oppression they DO NOT want revenge, they simply want equality. The rhetoric of the extreme right suggests otherwise, fear is their weapon of choice. Google "White Genocide". Or better, don't, take my word for it.
I hope you are right but good people like Michael on here are not finding that. I know some Polish people, lovely people that I worked with for several years are now thinking of leaving even though they (astutely) got their British citizenship sorted out some time ago.
I get annoyed when people excuse xenophobic behaviour with false equivalence and lies, when some say we need to "understand their motivation". Their motivation is hatred and fear. Racists are scum. Unfortunately due in large part to the language of Brexit and nationalism they feel empowered they are "getting their country back" and they are shouting "go home" and worse to good people. And it's my generation that are guilty of it by and large.
Laughing
Well-known member
It's odd and I hadn't really thought about it until a few minutes ago. I have worked and lived in Arab countries Asian countries and never been racially abused. I understand that it does exist, one faction in Africa trying to genocide another for example, but every European nation certainly has racism s does America. Been to Australia and New Zealand but it doesn't seem as bad there as here.
Laughing
Well-known member
I know a fair few Polish people and work on and off in Poland and certainly where I live that is not the case. I am sure if it's bad in other places, of course,just not where I live. I do come across casual racism occasionally where I live, not that I am excusing it, in fact got in a scrap with a, and this is true a white fat middle aged bloke, for calling our barman black Mark. His excuse was, he doesn't mind. ****.
indeedido
Well-known member
I'm afraid it is arguably worse in Australia. Similar in that it is generational, but there is a lot of racism experienced by aboriginal people. I see it on every visit and in the same way highlighted. I hate it as my family over there are guilty of it. I wore a sweat shirt with the aboriginal flag on and was given the cold shoulder by quite a few. The experience gave me just the slightest incline of what my mate Robbie Dann from Broome feels much more regularly.
That said I have experienced acute racism in the middle east, with a real hierarchy. Arab>Ex Pats>Pakistani>Bengali>Filipino
I have experienced it amongst Latin Americans too, with Argentinians looking down on Cubans who look down on Colombians who look down on Mexicans etc.
Some Black people and some Asians are antagonistic towards each other in this country, but I think that is the point it is some, not all.
The point is surely to look at the person, how they conduct their lives and treat their fellow humans, not what their colour, race, religion or heritage is?
We are not unique as a society here and I do sincerely believe that time is diluting the poison and ever more quickly.
Uwefuchs
Well-known member
So we agree that some people have misinterpreted the BLM movement, thats a start.
Former Crystal Palace chairman on talksport, I'm not his biggest fan but he is usually very articulate and I would guess he has a lot of twitter followers. If he is arguing that BLM are a political organisation then surely this will influence a lot of his followers?
Good point, I agree. However not all these people are 60+. I know a lot of younger people that feel this way as well. Rightly or wrongly some of this group feel like the world is moving too fast for them. Not all these people are racist either and these are the people I'm concerned about, some are simply struggling to move with the times with the correct terms for gender/race etc. Some things need to change but we need to take these people on the journey with us, not isolate them and call them racist. I've had people ask me if they are now classed as racist for enjoying things like Faulty Towers. Changing the culture in this country needs to happen carefully in my opinion.
Explicit and implicit racism are different things. Explicit racism is when somebody knows they are racist and consciously behaves in a manner which discriminates against others. Implicit racism is unconscious and far more prevalent in society, generally the implicit racist does not even realise that he/she is racist. Its an unconscious bias towards people who we see as similar to ourselves and against those who we see as different. Its born out of fear and is a survival instinct.
This is very important because I think a lot of racism comes out of fear of others who are different than us. Look back to the leave campaign who warned of '10s of thousands of Turks coming to take over our country'. Its a fear tactic and it works. This is the type of thing I talked about earlier, working class people talking about their culture being eroded. Winston Churchill has been revered in this country for 70 years then overnight people are being told he's racist and we need to tear his statue down. This frightens people and the answer isn't to have two groups of people fighting in the street, or on the Internet. People need to have an adult debate and discuss the subject, unfortunately everything now is tribal (on both sides) and that's when people never learn.
For all you who want to condemn people thats fine, carry on. I'm not saying you are wrong. Lets ban the Millwall fans if you want, kick the club out of the league even.
Then what? That's what I'm asking, how do we change things. I agree that many are beyond redemption but what about those who aren't?
Borobuddah
Well-known member
Their fans applauded and cheered both the linked arms and kneeling, thank goodness
the_holgate_roof
Well-known member
Well they players stood together holding a kick out racism banner to standing applause and then QPR took the knee and Millwall stood, no booing in the ground.
Corco65
Well-known member
Given what Michael_Vronsky and his wife have encountered as he described earlier, as have many other people of colour in our country Day in day out.
How many people who have contributed to this thread or are new to reading it, are prepared to make a positive affirmation of 'Black Lives Matter' not more than anybody else's but that Black Lives Matter.
Let's offer MV and all other people of colour our support.
Black Lives Matter
How many people who have contributed to this thread or are new to reading it, are prepared to make a positive affirmation of 'Black Lives Matter' not more than anybody else's but that Black Lives Matter.
Let's offer MV and all other people of colour our support.
Black Lives Matter
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