Mandatory Jabs for NHS workers

[Muttley]

The 90% efficacy has nothing to do with what I said and refers only to hospitalization and death.

No, the efficacy of a vaccine is how well it protects against infection. So, for example, if 100 people (who have not previously had COVID) are given a vaccine with an efficacy of 80% and then exposed to infection 80 of them would not be infected.

You are plain wrong.

 

[Andy_W]

Andy, provide the data or stop complaining about mine being out of date.

The NHS has been collapsing for a decade and appears functional by extending waiting lists. Ignoring peoples health problems isn't a functioning NHS, far from it. It is and has been collapsing and failing in its intended function. Brexit had an impact on the NHS, absolutely. Why you would think I wouldn't argue that is beyond me. 22,000 staff left as a direct result of brexit. More will have to leave the service if the government go ahead with this ridiculous legislation.

You say its not a threat.. Ya OK, it is a threat and a clear one, it has no ambiguity.

I provided the article where is said 116k are unvaccinated (there are many others), which means 92% are at least partially vaccinated (by choice), but actually it's 92.8% (and going up by the day, it can't go down).

Government to introduce COVID-19 vaccination as a condition of deployment for all frontline health and social care workers

Health and social care providers in England will be required to ensure workers are fully vaccinated against COVID-19.

www.gov.uk

Seeing as we were (the north east) reported as leading the way before, I would assume we're still right up there. As you mention there are other areas with more from ethnic backgrounds susceptible to anti vax propaganda, dragging the average down. So I would assume we're dragging it up. Hence trusting the 95% (mentioned in the article).

The NHS has been screwed for a decade, look whose been in power, look who's managed the pandemic poorly etc.

You've argued against us whingeing about brexit on many points, like HGV drivers? You blame that on other issues, just thought you would have been consistent? But anyway, moving on, it's good to see you agree that it's the Tories and Brexit crippling the NHS (more than the unvaxed nurses who haven't even left yet), and the easiest way to solve that is to fund it better, stop people getting sick (covid), and get back in the SM/CU, with the freedom of movement etc.

It's not a threat, it's a respectable request, for their role (treating the most at risk people in the UK), backed up by medical science. If people choose to ignore that and leave their jobs then that's up to them. I don't think many will.

 

[Laughing]

No, the efficacy of a vaccine is how well it protects against infection. So, for example, if 100 people (who have not previously had COVID) are given a vaccine with an efficacy of 80% and then exposed to infection 80 of them would not be infected.

You are plain wrong.

Not quite. Efficacy and effectiveness aren't the same thing. Efficacy is a measure of reduced cases of a disease in a controlled environment not how effective it is in the real world. None of the vaccines have ever been 90% effective in the real world, largely due to delta.

You are right that it is a measure of stopping the disease though not an accurate one in practice.

 

[Laughing]

I provided the article where is said 116k are unvaccinated (there are many others), which means 92% are at least partially vaccinated (by choice), but actually it's 92.8% (and going up by the day, it can't go down).
View attachment 27726

Government to introduce COVID-19 vaccination as a condition of deployment for all frontline health and social care workers

Health and social care providers in England will be required to ensure workers are fully vaccinated against COVID-19.

www.gov.uk

Seeing as we were (the north east) reported as leading the way before, I would assume we're still right up there. As you mention there are other areas with more from ethnic backgrounds susceptible to anti vax propaganda, dragging the average down. So I would assume we're dragging it up. Hence trusting the 95% (mentioned in the article).

The NHS has been screwed for a decade, look whose been in power, look who's managed the pandemic poorly etc.

You've argued against us whingeing about brexit on many points, like HGV drivers? You blame that on other issues, just thought you would have been consistent? But anyway, moving on, it's good to see you agree that it's the Tories and Brexit crippling the NHS (more than the unvaxed nurses who haven't even left yet), and the easiest way to solve that is to fund it better, stop people getting sick (covid), and get back in the SM/CU, with the freedom of movement etc.

It's not a threat, it's a respectable request, for their role (treating the most at risk people in the UK), backed up by medical science. If people choose to ignore that and leave their jobs then that's up to them. I don't think many will.

Sorry Andy missed that link I assumed it was the same as a previous one from a news paper. I'll have a look later.

 

[Laughing]

Sorry Andy missed that link I assumed it was the same as a previous one from a news paper. I'll have a look later.

Had a quick look at that article Andy and I don't see any numbers am I going mad?

 

[Muttley]

Not quite. Efficacy and effectiveness aren't the same thing. Efficacy is a measure of reduced cases of a disease in a controlled environment not how effective it is in the real world. None of the vaccines have ever been 90% effective in the real world, largely due to delta.

Dancing on the head of a pin rather than admit you either used the wrong word or didn't understand the term you were using.

Efficacy of a vaccine IS the measure of how well it protects the vaccinated from becoming infected.

If you can't admit when you are wrong...

 

[Randy]

Why only the NHS? Why not the police and the fire brigade? Is it mandatory to have the vaccine in the armed forces? I know the Americans have or are bringing that into force over there, covid vaccine as part of the round of other jabs they have.

 

[Laughing]

Dancing on the head of a pin rather than admit you either used the wrong word or didn't understand the term you were using.

Efficacy of a vaccine IS the measure of how well it protects the vaccinated from becoming infected.

If you can't admit when you are wrong...

No that is correct I was wrong. But no covid vaccine had ever been anywhere near 90% even with alpha and pre alpha in the real world. Alpha was estimated at between 60 and 90% and it is considerably less with delta.

 

[Laughing]

I provided the article where is said 116k are unvaccinated (there are many others), which means 92% are at least partially vaccinated (by choice), but actually it's 92.8% (and going up by the day, it can't go down).
View attachment 27726

Government to introduce COVID-19 vaccination as a condition of deployment for all frontline health and social care workers

Health and social care providers in England will be required to ensure workers are fully vaccinated against COVID-19.

www.gov.uk

Seeing as we were (the north east) reported as leading the way before, I would assume we're still right up there. As you mention there are other areas with more from ethnic backgrounds susceptible to anti vax propaganda, dragging the average down. So I would assume we're dragging it up. Hence trusting the 95% (mentioned in the article).

The NHS has been screwed for a decade, look whose been in power, look who's managed the pandemic poorly etc.

You've argued against us whingeing about brexit on many points, like HGV drivers? You blame that on other issues, just thought you would have been consistent? But anyway, moving on, it's good to see you agree that it's the Tories and Brexit crippling the NHS (more than the unvaxed nurses who haven't even left yet), and the easiest way to solve that is to fund it better, stop people getting sick (covid), and get back in the SM/CU, with the freedom of movement etc.

It's not a threat, it's a respectable request, for their role (treating the most at risk people in the UK), backed up by medical science. If people choose to ignore that and leave their jobs then that's up to them. I don't think many will.

This might be a quick response before dinner so bare with me for a full response.

The article you quoted may be right, I don't know. 95% vaccinated seems mighty high given the average of 84% amongst clinicians. I just don't know and the truth is neither do you.

On brexit... Oh do be quiet I have argued against brexit impacting hgv drivers and timber shortages and was right on both. You can see the same happening with drivers across Europe now.

I argue when people talk crap to shout down brexiteers without even bothering to look at the facts

I think Brexit is a **** show and have never said anything other than that.

BRB dinner is ready.

 

[Randy]

Also.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1458397959213797377

 

[Laughing]

OK back. To address your comment around whether it's a threat or not, of course it is, get vaccinated or be forced out. It's unequivocally a threat whatever you say.

Finally getting vaccinated is the right thing to do. Yes I agree but daily testing is far more effective than vaccines at protecting their patients. It gives better protection knowing what we do from the lancet report and it doesn't require cutting staff. A win win. Why anyone would argue with that is beyond me unless, of course, you are revelling in looking down your nose at doctors and nurses who don't want to get vaccinated. You might even think that the government are manipulating you to talk about this rather than focus on where the problems actually lie.

I'll come back to your numbers later.

 

[Laughing]

Also.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1458397959213797377

He says a lot I wouldn't pay much attention to be honest. I did notice the first comment about my dad is 74 and didn't fight in 2 world wars... He didn't fight in any.

 

[Laughing]

To address the article you linked to Andy. I am going to call bs on that I am afraid and here is why.

The figures I supplied from the ons had an average uptake in clinicians of 84%. That doesn't include backroom staff. The figures covered up to the end of August. To suggest that since August through to September 9th that number jumped to 92% is wrong. That would require 104k vaccinations of clinicians in 9 days. It didn't happen. We have been doing 600k kids a month since August from 750k monthly vaccinations.

Either your article is wrong on its numbers or the ons is wrong.

We are still close to 16% of Frontline workers unvaccinated, according to the ons. That's almost a quarter of a million staff that we rely on nationally for healthcare.

Even assuming every spare vaccination was going to the nhs we would be no where near 90% vaccination. Bare in mind i used the highest figure possible, first dose vaccination only. We are screwed if those 200k doctors and nurses get removed from Frontline care.

 

[Andy_W]

Sorry Andy missed that link I assumed it was the same as a previous one from a news paper. I'll have a look later.

To address the article you linked to Andy. I am going to call bs on that I am afraid and here is why.

The figures I supplied from the ons had an average uptake in clinicians of 84%. That doesn't include backroom staff. The figures covered up to the end of August. To suggest that since August through to September 9th that number jumped to 92% is wrong. That would require 104k vaccinations of clinicians in 9 days. It didn't happen. We have been doing 600k kids a month since August from 750k monthly vaccinations.

Either your article is wrong on its numbers or the ons is wrong.

We are still close to 16% of Frontline workers unvaccinated, according to the ons. That's almost a quarter of a million staff that we rely on nationally for healthcare.

Even assuming every spare vaccination was going to the nhs we would be no where near 90% vaccination. Bare in mind i used the highest figure possible, first dose vaccination only. We are screwed if those 200k doctors and nurses get removed from Frontline care.

The link is effectively backed up by the government page which I quoted:

Government to introduce COVID-19 vaccination as a condition of deployment for all frontline health and social care workers

Health and social care providers in England will be required to ensure workers are fully vaccinated against COVID-19.

www.gov.uk

Here's the text from the .gov website, dated 9 Nov 2021:

The majority of NHS workers are already vaccinated, as over 92.8% have had their first dose and 89.9% have had both doses of a COVID-19 vaccine. In social care, 83.7% of domiciliary care workers have had their first dose and 74.6% have had both doses.

Latest published data shows, however, that over 103,000 NHS trust workers and 105,000 domiciliary care workers have not been reported as fully vaccinated and the government is urging them to take up the offer now, to keep themselves and those they care for safe.

There's many reports of 100-116k being left to be vaccinated, pretty much every single major news outlet ran an equivalent story, that's ~93% at least single vaccinated, already, across the board.

 

[Andy_W]

Why only the NHS? Why not the police and the fire brigade? Is it mandatory to have the vaccine in the armed forces? I know the Americans have or are bringing that into force over there, covid vaccine as part of the round of other jabs they have.

The Police stations and Fire Stations aren't full of exceptionally vulnerable people, or many people over 60, 70, 80 etc. Obviously a much lesser risk, but not no risk. But I wouldn't be against mandating those either, for those that don't have medical reasons, albeit I wouldn't be100% for it, like I am with front line healthcare.

Loads of vaccines are mandatory in the armed forces (if you want a career), you get them on the day you arrive, right before they shave your head (if they still do that). From what I remember I had to have about 4 that I hadn't already had, then another 2-5 when going to some countries, no one single person in our intake said no. A couple of things were optional, once out of training, like the nerve agent stuff, but most even still chose to have those when going to war zones.

Those that didn't get the vaccines in the forces likely didn't get to fly, work on aircraft, go on the boats or go on ops. They also like never beat their peers to promotion and found their contract was not renewed after 9 years.

 

[Laughing]

The link is effectively backed up by the government page which I quoted:

Government to introduce COVID-19 vaccination as a condition of deployment for all frontline health and social care workers

Health and social care providers in England will be required to ensure workers are fully vaccinated against COVID-19.

www.gov.uk

Here's the text from the .gov website, dated 9 Nov 2021:

The majority of NHS workers are already vaccinated, as over 92.8% have had their first dose and 89.9% have had both doses of a COVID-19 vaccine. In social care, 83.7% of domiciliary care workers have had their first dose and 74.6% have had both doses.

Latest published data shows, however, that over 103,000 NHS trust workers and 105,000 domiciliary care workers have not been reported as fully vaccinated and the government is urging them to take up the offer now, to keep themselves and those they care for safe.

There's many reports of 100-116k being left to be vaccinated, pretty much every single major news outlet ran an equivalent story, that's ~93% at least single vaccinated, already, across the board.

The first link wasn't backed up by the second link andy they were 2 months apart. The first link is nonsense and badly researched.

The second article may be right, it is dated November 9th. The first was dated 9th of september and was clearly wrong, it wasn't mathematically possible.

The second articles maths doesn't work out very well either given the number of staff employed by the NHS, according to the NHS, of course. But let's assume that it is correct and we have 7% unvaccinated still. Whats that's 103K (which isnt right, its about 4 or 5 k short of that) So even with the lower number, thats 98K folks the NHS loose, or just clinicians and medically trained staff, thats 1 million give or take 40k. thats 70K doctors and nurses the NHS would loose today.

That number will go down, you would hope as more get vaccinated, but we can't be too far away from saturation now, so even if we get to 95%, we are still back where I started at 50K doctors and nurses leaving the profession. We will never in our lifetime get to 99.5% clinicians vaccinated. Thats a pipe dream.

Again bare in mind I am using first dose vaccinations, assuming anyone with 1 dose will go on and get the second (not sure how true that is, but most cetainly would.)

We are truly screwed if the government went ahead with this, which they wont, of course.

 

[Laughing]

The Police stations and Fire Stations aren't full of exceptionally vulnerable people, or many people over 60, 70, 80 etc. Obviously a much lesser risk, but not no risk. But I wouldn't be against mandating those either, for those that don't have medical reasons, albeit I wouldn't be100% for it, like I am with front line healthcare.

Loads of vaccines are mandatory in the armed forces (if you want a career), you get them on the day you arrive, right before they shave your head (if they still do that). From what I remember I had to have about 4 that I hadn't already had, then another 2-5 when going to some countries, no one single person in our intake said no. A couple of things were optional, once out of training, like the nerve agent stuff, but most even still chose to have those when going to war zones.

Those that didn't get the vaccines in the forces likely didn't get to fly, work on aircraft, go on the boats or go on ops. They also like never beat their peers to promotion and found their contract was not renewed after 9 years.

Mandating vaccinations for a new starter is very different to enforcing it on people who already have terms and conditions applied to them. They are in no way comparable.

 

[Randy]

The Police stations and Fire Stations aren't full of exceptionally vulnerable people, or many people over 60, 70, 80 etc. Obviously a much lesser risk, but not no risk. But I wouldn't be against mandating those either, for those that don't have medical reasons, albeit I wouldn't be100% for it, like I am with front line healthcare.

Loads of vaccines are mandatory in the armed forces (if you want a career), you get them on the day you arrive, right before they shave your head (if they still do that). From what I remember I had to have about 4 that I hadn't already had, then another 2-5 when going to some countries, no one single person in our intake said no. A couple of things were optional, once out of training, like the nerve agent stuff, but most even still chose to have those when going to war zones.

Those that didn't get the vaccines in the forces likely didn't get to fly, work on aircraft, go on the boats or go on ops. They also like never beat their peers to promotion and found their contract was not renewed after 9 years.

The police and the fire brigade are in close contact with people every single day.

 

[r00fie1]

Hundreds of Notts care workers may lose jobs over vaccine deadline

There have been concerns over staff shortages as a result of the policy

www.nottinghampost.com

Hundreds of Notts care workers risk losing jobs as vaccine deadline reached​

There have been concerns over staff shortages as a result of the policy


A care home boss has vented her frustration at a deadline for all workers to be double vaccinated against coronavirus and warned it will cost jobs.

Care employees across the country were told to get two jabs by Thursday, November 11 - unless clinically exempt - but as the date is reached Nottinghamshire County Council confirmed around 450 people are expected to be unvaccinated.

Unvaccinated staff who aren’t exempt could be redeployed to other roles, or could lose their jobs. But residents and their friends and relatives will not be subject to the same requirements.

Anita Astle MBE, Managing Director of Wren Hall Nursing Home in Selston, thought the decision was unfair on those that had cared for patients since the start of the pandemic.

She said: "Many of those people have cared for Covid positive residents when there was no vaccines and PPE was not readily available, and whilst the Government was issuing shocking guidance.

"It feels really wrong to give them no choice and to mandate to these people what they have to be jabbed or risk losing their jobs when they have been on the front line.

"It does not apply to residents or relatives which I have a problem with. If it has to apply to the care workers then why not everybody else.

"The same rules are coming in for NHS workers but they have until April.

"Two of my staff are currently applying for exempt status but if they can't get it then they won't be able to work here anymore. The thought of having to terminate them makes me incredibly unhappy.

"I myself am triple jabbed and believe in the vaccination programme, but I do not believe in mandatory vaccinations at all."

The Care Quality Commission (CQC) will monitor the procedures put in place to check people are vaccinated and take action where checks aren’t being carried out.

In its guidance on the regulations, the Government said despite protection from testing and PPE, and the best efforts of committed staff, there have been outbreaks across the country, and nearly 14,000 care home residents have died of Covid-19 since the beginning of this year.

Ms Astle added: "The Government is going to destroy the social care sector because care homes will not be able to get staff and that will have knock on affect for patients that need to be discharged from hospitals into homes, for example.

"There are already shortages and some care homes have lost up to 30 per cent of their staff, although the average is around seven.

"All this for mandating vaccination for people who have worked for 18 months without them, it's incredibly frustrating."

Melanie Brooks, Corporate Director for Adult Social Care and Public Health at Nottinghamshire County Council, said: “We anticipate there will be approximately 5 percent of care home staff who are unvaccinated in Nottinghamshire by November 11 and we are continuing to encourage people to take up the vaccine.

"We have been proactively supporting providers since the announcement to ensure they have robust contingency plans in place.

"For example, they have been working to backfill posts where they know someone isn’t willing to take up the vaccine.

“We will also be working with providers on a recruitment campaign for care home staff ahead of the winter period.”

In Nottinghamshire as of the week ending September 19, 90.4 per cent of staff working in older adult care homes, or 9,653 people, had received their first vaccination.

However, 1,028 people working in those homes had not received their first jab in time to receive their second by the deadline.

UNISON had previously warned of huge staff shortages unless the mandatory jab policy was dropped, citing the Government's own prediction that the “no jab, no job” care homes policy would result in the loss of 40,000 to 70,000 workers.

Meanwhile, Nottingham City Council confirmed there were a small number of unvaccinated staff at its three authority-run care homes, and that workers may be relocated and agency staff brought in when required.

Councillor Adele Williams, Portfolio Holder for Adults and Health at Nottingham City Council, said: “Our care home staff have worked tirelessly throughout the Covid pandemic to support elderly residents in challenging circumstances.

"I am pleased to see that the majority have now been vaccinated ahead of Thursday's deadline to protect themselves, their families and the people they support.

“There are 76 care homes in Nottingham, of which the city council runs three. The current figures we have for staff being double-vaccinated across all 76 homes is close to 90 per cent and rising.

“There is a small number of unvaccinated staff in our three council-run homes, but this is so small as to risk identifying individuals.

"We are looking at redeployment options for these workers and vaccinated agency staff have been employed where necessary.

“We have worked closely with our private care providers on vaccinations and are assured that they have plans in place to maintain safe care, including the use of agency and additional hours for some staff.”

A similar mandate was recently announced that will require front line NHS staff to be vaccinated by April 2022 or risk losing their jobs.

 

[Anton_Berg]

I'd rather be in hospital when they're short staffed than put my life in the hands of misfits who need sacking.