Mandatory Jabs for NHS workers

I've got conflicting thoughts about this.
I think people who won't get vaccinated, that's those with no medical excuse, are chumps.
I don't think anyone should be forced to have a vaccine if they don't want it, it's forcing medical treatment on people, that can't be right.
BUT regarding sacking people, especially health workers over this, is well out of order. It's the current government though so I'll keep an eye out for the U turn.
 
Anton_Berg said:
I'd rather be in hospital when they're short staffed than put my life in the hands of misfits who need sacking.
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No you wouldn't. You wouldn't care who resuccitated you if you're heart stopped.

Your moral outrage is misplaced and not very genuine.
 
Randy said:
news.sky.com

Thousands of care home staff to lose their jobs as mandatory COVID-19 vaccine deadline passes

From Thursday, all care home workers in England must have been double jabbed, unless they are medically exempt, and the latest NHS figures are expected to show more than 50,000 current staff have not had both doses of a jab.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
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My wife and I were discussing this this morning Randy.

My thoughts were that the government probably think they will be easily replaced with jabbed unemployed folks as it is, rightly or wrongly, considered an unskilled job. I think they are in for a surprise. I suspect for many it's vocational.

It's what the tories believe is a popular piece of legislation and got little to do with the safety of patients, or service users. It also detracts from the issue(s) of the day and gets people fighting over this instead of outraged at how many people this murderous regime have sacrificed to capitalism.

This thread demonstrates how strongly people feel about this, on both sides of the fence. We are arguing the wrong thing.
 
Laughing said:
My wife and I were discussing this this morning Randy.

My thoughts were that the government probably think they will be easily replaced with jabbed unemployed folks as it is, rightly or wrongly, considered an unskilled job. I think they are in for a surprise. I suspect for many it's vocational.

It's what the tories believe is a popular piece of legislation and got little to do with the safety of patients, or service users. It also detracts from the issue(s) of the day and gets people fighting over this instead of outraged at how many people this murderous regime have sacrificed to capitalism.

This thread demonstrates how strongly people feel about this, on both sides of the fence. We are arguing the wrong thing.
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The government (and it seems some of the public) were quite happy for the likes of my wife for example to work in care homes throughout the pandemic with little supply of PPE, no furlough fall backs and **** poor wages and now some are facing the sack for not taking a vaccine they personally feel they don't need or want. Flu vaccines aren't mandated for example in care homes which is just as deadly to care home residents as covid is, that's not a comparison, that's just how it is.

I imagine a few carers and hospital workers are saying "take your claps and banging of pans and shove it up your ****".
 
Randy said:
The government (and it seems some of the public) were quite happy for the likes of my wife for example to work in care homes throughout the pandemic with little supply of PPE, no furlough fall backs and **** poor wages and now some are facing the sack for not taking a vaccine they personally feel they don't need or want. Flu vaccines aren't mandated for example in care homes which is just as deadly to care home residents as covid is, that's not a comparison, that's just how it is.

I imagine a few carers and hospital workers are saying "take your claps and banging of pans and shove it up your ****".
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Oh I agree Randy, I have been pretty vocal on this thread about what I think about people slamming health workers.
 
Laughing said:
The first link wasn't backed up by the second link andy they were 2 months apart. The first link is nonsense and badly researched.

The second article may be right, it is dated November 9th. The first was dated 9th of september and was clearly wrong, it wasn't mathematically possible.

The second articles maths doesn't work out very well either given the number of staff employed by the NHS, according to the NHS, of course. But let's assume that it is correct and we have 7% unvaccinated still. Whats that's 103K (which isnt right, its about 4 or 5 k short of that) So even with the lower number, thats 98K folks the NHS loose, or just clinicians and medically trained staff, thats 1 million give or take 40k. thats 70K doctors and nurses the NHS would loose today.

That number will go down, you would hope as more get vaccinated, but we can't be too far away from saturation now, so even if we get to 95%, we are still back where I started at 50K doctors and nurses leaving the profession. We will never in our lifetime get to 99.5% clinicians vaccinated. Thats a pipe dream.

Again bare in mind I am using first dose vaccinations, assuming anyone with 1 dose will go on and get the second (not sure how true that is, but most cetainly would.)

We are truly screwed if the government went ahead with this, which they wont, of course.
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Your stats were months old, and didn't include the North East/ Teesside hospitals with actual covid wards, and A&E's etc. You quoted TEWS which is nothing of the sort.

If we're at 93% now (according to .gov, hopefully reputable), then it's fair to assume there's some above that and some below, like you said before, areas with more minorities will be far less etc.

I never once said we would get to 99.5% coverage amongst healthcare workers (which I've now pointed out twice), another straw man argument from yourself.
I said <0.5% of North East (James Cook/ North Tees, not TEWS) patient facing nurses/ doctors etc would choose to leave, rather than getting vaccinated (assuming they're not medically exempt/ were not going to leave anyway).

Do you think 50k doctors and nurses (out of 425k https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-number-of-nhs-doctors-and-nurses-in-england) will leave the profession, due to a vaccine mandate? That's nearly 12%, it's not happening.

They likely won't need to go ahead with it, the vast majority have already chose it, the talk of the mandate, and another 6 months will get a few more %. I really don't see anyone being "fired", but if they are then I would have to question their choices anyway.
 
Randy said:
The police and the fire brigade are in close contact with people every single day.
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Of course they are, that's their job, but what's your point?

Do you really not see how a nurse/ doctor is working in an environment where there is a much higher covid risk to the people they're helping, than a copper of fireman?

You might as well tell the firemen and coppers to get jabbed, and give the nurses the handcuffs and fire retardant gear instead :rolleyes:
 
Randy said:
The government (and it seems some of the public) were quite happy for the likes of my wife for example to work in care homes throughout the pandemic with little supply of PPE, no furlough fall backs and **** poor wages
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Who on earth was happy with that? I've not seen one instance of people being happy with that on here?
I voted Labour, who are directly opposed to the Tories, so at least I did my bit to try and vote them out, which I'll do the same again next time, will you?

Randy said:
and now some are facing the sack for not taking a vaccine they personally feel they don't need or want. Flu vaccines aren't mandated for example in care homes which is just as deadly to care home residents as covid is, that's not a comparison, that's just how it is.

I imagine a few carers and hospital workers are saying "take your claps and banging of pans and shove it up your ****".
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What the minority think doesn't match up with science and risk reduction. They have a duty of care to the people they look after, it is part of that job, or at least the people they look after (who pay for it) think it should be.

Flu isn't "just as deadly" as covid, and nowhere near as transmissible, which is the key factor. Even if they were both the same, a FLU IFR of 1 is very different to Delta with and IFR of 7.
 
Andy_W said:
Your stats were months old, and didn't include the North East/ Teesside hospitals with actual covid wards, and A&E's etc. You quoted TEWS which is nothing of the sort.

If we're at 93% now (according to .gov, hopefully reputable), then it's fair to assume there's some above that and some below, like you said before, areas with more minorities will be far less etc.

I never once said we would get to 99.5% coverage amongst healthcare workers (which I've now pointed out twice), another straw man argument from yourself.
I said <0.5% of North East (James Cook/ North Tees, not TEWS) patient facing nurses/ doctors etc would choose to leave, rather than getting vaccinated (assuming they're not medically exempt/ were not going to leave anyway).

Do you think 50k doctors and nurses (out of 425k https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-number-of-nhs-doctors-and-nurses-in-england) will leave the profession, due to a vaccine mandate? That's nearly 12%, it's not happening.

They likely won't need to go ahead with it, the vast majority have already chose it, the talk of the mandate, and another 6 months will get a few more %. I really don't see anyone being "fired", but if they are then I would have to question their choices anyway.
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We will not get to 99.5% at james cook either Andy. I used TEWS because it was geographically close so was likely to have a similar ethnic makeup.

My numbers were 9 days older than the numbers you first supplied andy, is that a straw man argument? Don't be cheeky.

Yes I think we will have about 5% of doctors and nurses not vaccinated across the country. I don't think the government will go ahead with the threat, it will be delayed or abandoned as political suicide. Even if that number was 1% the NHS is screwed.

this is where we are right now: https://www.theguardian.com/society...-and-putting-patients-at-risk-say-nhs-leaders. We can't afford to loose anyone.

You seem to be saying james cook will be OK so thats OK then? You're not saying that are you andy, cos that would be a straw man argument, wouldn't it?

Let me re-iterate my point again, for clarity as the thread has rumbled on. It's a terrible idea to move or dismiss healthcare professionals who choose not to be vaccinated. I said this was for 2 reasons. Firstly the health service will collapse and secondly it is morally repugnant.

We'll know next spring, I guess.
 
Andy_W said:
Who on earth was happy with that? I've not seen one instance of people being happy with that on here?
I voted Labour, who are directly opposed to the Tories, so at least I did my bit to try and vote them out, which I'll do the same again next time, will you?


What the minority think doesn't match up with science and risk reduction. They have a duty of care to the people they look after, it is part of that job, or at least the people they look after (who pay for it) think it should be.

Flu isn't "just as deadly" as covid, and nowhere near as transmissible, which is the key factor. Even if they were both the same, a FLU IFR of 1 is very different to Delta with and IFR of 7.
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Flu in a care home is just as deadly as covid in a care home. Which is exactly what I said.

It's funny how those kicking off about the unjabbed now didn't give a **** if they were jabbed or not when hospitals were sending positive patients back into care homes in 2020. Even twice weekly testing for staff and once a week testing for residents isn't enough for some folk in this country.
 
Laughing said:
We will not get to 99.5% at james cook either Andy. I used TEWS because it was geographically close so was likely to have a similar ethnic makeup.

My numbers were 9 days older than the numbers you first supplied andy, is that a straw man argument? Don't be cheeky.

Yes I think we will have about 5% of doctors and nurses not vaccinated across the country. I don't think the government will go ahead with the threat, it will be delayed or abandoned as political suicide. Even if that number was 1% the NHS is screwed.

this is where we are right now: https://www.theguardian.com/society...-and-putting-patients-at-risk-say-nhs-leaders. We can't afford to loose anyone.

You seem to be saying james cook will be OK so thats OK then? You're not saying that are you andy, cos that would be a straw man argument, wouldn't it?

Let me re-iterate my point again, for clarity as the thread has rumbled on. It's a terrible idea to move or dismiss healthcare professionals who choose not to be vaccinated. I said this was for 2 reasons. Firstly the health service will collapse and secondly it is morally repugnant.

We'll know next spring, I guess.
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I never said we would get to 99.5% vaccinated at James Cook, again, another straw man argument, I've explained this three times now. There will be plenty off sick, have legitimate medical reasons, those who are not in patient facing roles or those who will go to no none patient facing roles, all of which I'm fine with. The 99.5% is those who chose vaccines, those who are not going to "get fired" or those who don't leave for vaccine reasons (I'm sure others will leave for other reasons). My issue is those who have no medical reason not to, who don't seem to understand the risk benefit.

Ok, get your point on the TEWS, but it won't include those working with the most at risk (of Covid) patients, or those working with covid patients, who I would expect to have a much higher rate of vaccination.

You were using old data, to be honest I thought I picked a recent article (guess not), but the unvaxxed numbers tied in with the most recent numbers, I don't think it was made up (would like to see what the dataset was).

We might have only 5% (now), unvaxed, which is great/ getting there, it will go higher and probably top out around 98% I reckon (up here at least), before April, then what's left is mainly those that have good reason. I just don't see 1 in 200 nurses choosing to leave a profession for something which would improve patient care, but if they do, that's up to them. I'd say it would be a poor choice, as would the vast majority of nurses which made the right choice without needing a kick up the backside. Every nurse/ doctor I know is in no way against the proposals. Ther line of thought is they should be choosing it anyway, it shouldn't have got this far (or get this far in April, if it does).

The NHS is screwed, totally agree with that, not denying it isn't, it's been badly ran/ funded for at least a decade, but putting patients at increased undue risk is a separate argument.

No, I'm not saying James cook will be ok, none of them will be ok, none of them are ok, and none of them were before this, and not much will change (numbers wise) in any of them as a result of this. I quoted the percentage based on James cook, or comment on James cook as that's local, and that's where loads of my mates work.

Voting Tory, not against Tories or voting for brexit will do far more damage to the NHS than this, by a country mile.
 
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Randy said:
Flu in a care home is just as deadly as covid in a care home. Which is exactly what I said.

It's funny how those kicking off about the unjabbed now didn't give a **** if they were jabbed or not when hospitals were sending positive patients back into care homes in 2020. Even twice weekly testing for staff and once a week testing for residents isn't enough for some folk in this country.
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It's not though is it? The IFR of Covid is higher, and the R0 is higher. Flu is not as deadly as not as many will catch it, and if people do catch it their chances are less with covid, assuming they're vaccinated for Covid and Flu (albeit flu/ covid vaccines will reduce the risk of each).

One person bringing in covid is going to do more harm than one person bringing in flu.

A lightning strike is more deadly, it doesn't mean it is as likely, will kill as many etc.

There were no covid jabs in March/ April/ May 2020? Everyone other than some Tories thought it was a bad idea sending covid patients to care homes. Was anyone saying that was a good idea?
 
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Andy_W said:
I never said we would get to 99.5% vaccinated at James Cook, again, another straw man argument, I've explained this three times now. There will be plenty off sick, have legitimate medical reasons, those who are not in patient facing roles or those who will go to no none patient facing roles, all of which I'm fine with. The 99.5% is those who chose vaccines, those who are not going to "get fired" or those who don't leave for vaccine reasons (I'm sure others will leave for other reasons). My issue is those who have no medical reason not to, who don't seem to understand the risk benefit.

Ok, get your point on the TEWS, but it won't include those working with the most at risk (of Covid) patients, or those working with covid patients, who I would expect to have a much higher rate of vaccination.

You were using old data, to be honest I thought I picked a recent article (guess not), but the unvaxxed numbers tied in with the most recent numbers, I don't think it was made up (would like to see what the dataset was).

We might have only 5% (now), unvaxed, which is great/ getting there, it will go higher and probably top out around 98% I reckon (up here at least), before April, then what's left is mainly those that have good reason. I just don't see 1 in 200 nurses choosing to leave a profession for something which would improve patient care, but if they do, that's up to them. I'd say it would be a poor choice, as would the vast majority of nurses which made the right choice without needing a kick up the backside. Every nurse/ doctor I know is in no way against the proposals. Ther line of thought is they should be choosing it anyway, it shouldn't have got this far (or get this far in April, if it does).

The NHS is screwed, totally agree with that, not denying it isn't, it's been badly ran/ funded for at least a decade, but putting patients at increased undue risk is a separate argument.

No, I'm not saying James cook will be ok, none of them will be ok, none of them are ok, and none of them were before this, and not much will change (numbers wise) in any of them as a result of this. I quoted the percentage based on James cook, or comment on James cook as that's local, and that's where loads of my mates work.

Voting Tory, not against Tories or voting for brexit will do far more damage to the NHS than this, by a country mile.
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So lets get this straight then. Regardless of the cost in staff, you are all for mandatory vaccinating or you leave?

If you are then you're nuts Andy. If you are hoping it doesn't come to that then I agree but if the government go ahead with this we can't afford to lose any staff and it will be much much more than 1% I am certain of that.

As I said instead of bickering let's wait and see. Firstly we won't be losing an insignificant number of staff. We will lose a lot. Secondly I would be very surprised if this move doesn't force staff out of the nhs, even those vaccinated, because you and others have gone from clapping to villifying.

The service is losing nurses due to government treatment of the profession and will continue to do so if this goes ahead.

I absolutely despair of you and folks like you who look down their noses at the very people risking their lives to save others under difficult circumstances. You are clearly happy with your position I find your opinion abhorrent.

There is no way, if you required life saving intervention you would ask about vaccination status. Your opinion quite frankly is worthless you don't do the job so I suspect a doctor or nurse won't really care about your opinion.

Shame on you and others like you.
 
Andy_W said:
It's not though is it? The IFR of Covid is higher, and the R0 is higher. Flu is not as deadly as not as many will catch it, and if people do catch it their chances are less with covid, assuming they're vaccinated for Covid and Flu (albeit flu/ covid vaccines will reduce the risk of each).

One person bringing in covid is going to do more harm than one person bringing in flu.

A lightning strike is more deadly, it doesn't mean it is as likely, will kill as many etc.

There were no covid jabs in March/ April/ May 2020? Everyone other than some Tories thought it was a bad idea sending covid patients to care homes. Was anyone saying that was a good idea?
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It's the false faces that **** me off Andy.

Folks clapped for them, banged pans for them, raised money for them, expected them to continue working whilst others locked themselves away from the world. Hell a woman my wife works with locked herself in at work for four weeks doing nightshifts 6 days a week having no contact at all with other members of staff and keeping herself in the guest room until day shift staff had cleaned down floors, touch points and others bits and left the building.

Now fast forward where we are and we have people demanding they lose their jobs thinking their is a magic carer tree they can just shake and other carers land on the floor like the best picked granny Smith's. The missus who is 8 months pregnant has been working 40 hour weeks for the past month because of the shortage of trained, competent staff.

During the first lockdown my wife not only worked in the building she currently works but also worked in places in Helmsley, Thirsk, Sunderland, Newcastle and Hull as part of a group of 8-10 carers. Consistently putting themselves and their families at risk every single day to keep care standards high. We found out today that one of the women who was part of this group has been forced into paid leave until the end of this month then unpaid leave until April unless she has the vaccine. So I stand with those care workers who are bang within their rights to tell those who want them sacked to stick their clapping and pan bashing. Majority of which have absolutely no idea the mental and physical tolls working through the pandemic had taken on carers.
 
There's a far easier, less selfish, and less silly solution than losing your job.

Get vaccinated.

It's not hard.
 
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