Labour 10 points ahead of Tories...

Laughing

Well-known member
On the subject of a sizeable racist population in the uk, I don't think this is the case, at all. I suspect we are no more racist than similar countries around Europe. An EU study completed in the aftermath of the Floyd murder found that the uk was the third lowest racist country.

The study concentrated on black people rather than foreigners so there may be a natural bias there.

There was also a clear bias for countries where victims were more likely to report incidents to the police. Finland were the most racist, but also the country where victims were more likely to report to the police. No coincidence, I am sure.


In any event British isn't more racist than anywhere else, of that I am quite sure.

There is also an obvious link with brexit and racism which is probably overstated. You can be concerned about immigration and not be racist. The 2 are not the same. Of course racists will use immigration as an argument to support their racism which makes it more difficult to seperate the two.

Finally, the tories are done at the next election whoever they put up as leader. Sunak, I don't think, will carry enough votes to take a leadership contest, he isn't tory enough for many. High taxation and big government is hardly the tory mantra.

Starmer is probably the right man at the right time. I know he divides opinion. That doesn't really bother me too much. For every shy tory there is a shy Labour. He is starting to outline policies and he is beginning to repeat those policies at every opportunity. He did just that at the last 2 pmqs around labour's take on the energy crisis.
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
I agree, but most importantly, they need to win. I just fear that in 2 years with rishi at the wheel, labours button won't be big enough. Burnham is the one I think could bring a huge chunk of the middle with him and also re gain the North, starmer is not the main to break through this imo.
I wonder if the racists will tow the line with Rishi, even though he's English. They don't like the look of those who aren't white (or pink), and some of them will also be getting sick of those who sound "posh".

For a Tory, I think Rishi is good though, and one of the best of a very bad bunch. He's clearly calm, measured and competent, albeit what he's competent in won't necessarily benefit those worse off, without benefiting the most well off more. I think getting Rishi in would take quite a few votes back from the middle ground, as he's a mile away from Boris. I expect he could negotiate something better with the EU, and something more aligned with the EU. He's got an economic background and will realise Brexit in it's current form is killing the economy, and I think he would pick the economy over popularity.
 
Last edited:

BoroMart

Well-known member
On the subject of a sizeable racist population in the uk, I don't think this is the case, at all. I suspect we are no more racist than similar countries around Europe. An EU study completed in the aftermath of the Floyd murder found that the uk was the third lowest racist country.
s more that the racists are louder, prouder and more emboldened these days than 10 or 20 years ago
 

Laughing

Well-known member
I wonder if the racists will tow the line with Rishi, even though he's English. They don't like the look of those who aren't white (or pink), and some of them will also be getting sick of those who sound "posh".

For a Tory, I think Rishi is god though, and one of the best of a very bad bunch. He's clearly calm, measured and competent, albeit what he's competent in won't necessarily benefit those worse off, without benefiting the most well off more. I think getting Rishi in would take quite a few votes back from the middle ground, as he's a mile away from Boris. I expect he could negotiate something better with the EU, and something more aligned with the EU. He's got an economic background and will realise Brexit in it's current form is killing the economy, and I think he would pick the economy over popularity.
The problem the tories have with brexit is it hasn't worked and the erg will rail against any potential leader who suggests rejoining the single market. They are a minority but a big one with a lot of power. Its why I think hunt will struggle if he tosses his hat in the ring.

Brexit will follow whoever takes over as nothing short of rejoining the single market and customs union will sort the economy. It makes a mockery of get brexit done, the single policy that got the tories a majority.

Labour can campaign easily on negotiating a better deal. The tory slogan makes it easy for Labour to bat away any better deal from the tories given how often Johnson and other tories used the phrase oven ready deal.

It was one off the obvious problems with repeating a phrase over and over to get a short term majority.

Tories are done
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
s more that the racists are louder, prouder and more emboldened these days than 10 or 20 years ago
I think this is it: There is a clear link between the brexit vote and the fact racists become more bold and vociferous. For obvious reasons. But it is sad that we live in a country that is regressing as far as race relations go. We used to be one of the more advanced countries in Europe but we are defiantly regressing since Brexit. In more ways than one. That single issue has seen such a decline in this country: Whether it's from the conduct of our politicians, to more vocal racism, to the higher cost of living, the reduction in freedom of movement, the reduction in fresh produce on our shelves.

It just seems so sad that an entire country is going in completely the wrong direction just because Jacob Rees Mogg wanted to ignore tax evasion laws and the Murdochs can't control the EU parliament the way they can control UK gov.

It's one of the great tragedies of a developed nation and the worse thing is it wasn't caused by war or famine, it was caused by the very people who have had their lives damaged by it.
 

gizasqueezemister

Active member
Im not sure any party can 'fix' brexit. The red lines on both sides are too entrenched. Ultimately we were part of something that it was impossible to leave with a favourable outcome. That has been proven now (and those on the remain side can rightly claim - well we told you so). Some said at the time this is Hotel California and it seems to be so. An uncomfortable concept for me personally, but to quote the great Mogga, it is what it is. It will be interesting to see if Kier bites the bullet and outlines in his manifesto a plan to rejoin. Brave and bold move that could backfire but it could also be a big vote winner with those that regretted their leave vote. The alternative is labour having to work with whatever deal they inherit.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
Im not sure any party can 'fix' brexit. The red lines on both sides are too entrenched. Ultimately we were part of something that it was impossible to leave with a favourable outcome. That has been proven now (and those on the remain side can rightly claim - well we told you so). Some said at the time this is Hotel California and it seems to be so. An uncomfortable concept for me personally, but to quote the great Mogga, it is what it is. It will be interesting to see if Kier bites the bullet and outlines in his manifesto a plan to rejoin. Brave and bold move that could backfire but it could also be a big vote winner with those that regretted their leave vote. The alternative is labour having to work with whatever deal they inherit.
Of course brexit can be fixed. Rejoin the customs union and single market.

Full membership of the EU can't happen in the next Parliament so starmer won't go near that. He had already started that Labour will make the deal and relationship with the EU work. That likely means single market as the firststep, then customs union and maybe sometime down the line full membership.
 

gizasqueezemister

Active member
Of course brexit can be fixed. Rejoin the customs union and single market.

Full membership of the EU can't happen in the next Parliament so starmer won't go near that. He had already started that Labour will make the deal and relationship with the EU work. That likely means single market as the firststep, then customs union and maybe sometime down the line full membership.
To be fair that's not fixing brexit that's simply reversing it and it would be seen as such. Rejoining (albeit not immediately in full) is different altogether and much less challenging than attempting to fix 'the deal'.
 

Laughing

Well-known member
To be fair that's not fixing brexit that's simply reversing it and it would be seen as such. Rejoining (albeit not immediately in full) is different altogether and much less challenging than attempting to fix 'the deal'.
Being part of the single market and or the customs union isnt membership of the eu. It doesn't reverse brexit, it fixes the worst parts of it.
 

Muttley

Well-known member
Being part of the single market and or the customs union isnt membership of the eu. It doesn't reverse brexit, it fixes the worst parts of it.
I agree that is the way out. You can even rebrand it as "Market Synchronisation" and "Custom Rate Harmonisation" or some such nonsense. It even maps on to what the likes of F*r*ge were saying in 2016 "Why can't we be more like Norway/Switzerland?"
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
I think this is it: There is a clear link between the brexit vote and the fact racists become more bold and vociferous. For obvious reasons. But it is sad that we live in a country that is regressing as far as race relations go. We used to be one of the more advanced countries in Europe but we are defiantly regressing since Brexit. In more ways than one. That single issue has seen such a decline in this country: Whether it's from the conduct of our politicians, to more vocal racism, to the higher cost of living, the reduction in freedom of movement, the reduction in fresh produce on our shelves.

It just seems so sad that an entire country is going in completely the wrong direction just because Jacob Rees Mogg wanted to ignore tax evasion laws and the Murdochs can't control the EU parliament the way they can control UK gov.

It's one of the great tragedies of a developed nation and the worse thing is it wasn't caused by war or famine, it was caused by the very people who have had their lives damaged by it.
I don't think we're regressing as such (maybe increase in vocality, but not in numbers anyway), I think the number of racists in this country has always been high, but because they live in a country with a heavy majority well against any forms of racism they've just largely keep quiet in the shadows. They thought brexit was an excuse to be racist, just shows how thick/ behind the times they actually are.

I think racism is on the slow decrease mind, but not so much from anything specific being done targeted to adults, I think it's more that kids are taught better, and have to be more include in schools etc, which is of course the right thing to do. Racism will get bred out in the uk, to less each year, and can't not do on a glodal scale as the world has come more an more integrated by the internet. Everyone under the age of 30 has grown up and been schooled through the age of diversity, and integration, and then to a lesser extent each age group before that.
For some of the older lot it's how they grew up, and all they know, they won't change, they'll just go back into the shadows and racism will mostly die off when they do. Still a long way to go on that though.

Some of the things my grandparents used to say were obscene, although they certainly didn't mean it with hatred, it was discriminatory. Then to a lesser extent the next generation on one side of my family, and the other side is the complete opposite they're well up to speed.

It's just how people are brought up, and with each generation it should get diluted. You can't dilute to zero though, all you can do is keep weakening it down. Brexit is a vocal hurdle, but the racists won't win, not by a long shot.
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
I don't think we're regressing as such (maybe increase in vocality, but not in numbers anyway), I think the number of racists in this country has always been high, but because they live in a country with a heavy majority well against any forms of racism they've just largely keep quiet in the shadows. They thought brexit was an excuse to be racist, just shows how thick/ behind the times they actually are.

I think racism is on the slow decrease mind, but not so much from anything specific being done targeted to adults, I think it's more that kids are taught better, and have to be more include in schools etc, which is of course the right thing to do. Racism will get bred out in the uk, to less each year, and can't not do on a glodal scale as the world has come more an more integrated by the internet. Everyone under the age of 30 has grown up and been schooled through the age of diversity, and integration, and then to a lesser extent each age group before that.
For some of the older lot it's how they grew up, and all they know, they won't change, they'll just go back into the shadows and racism will mostly die off when they do. Still a long way to go on that though.

Some of the things my grandparents used to say were obscene, although they certainly didn't mean it with hatred, it was discriminatory. Then to a lesser extent the next generation on one side of my family, and the other side is the complete opposite they're well up to speed.

It's just how people are brought up, and with each generation it should get diluted. You can't dilute to zero though, all you can do is keep weakening it down. Brexit is a vocal hurdle, but the racists won't win, not by a long shot.
Oh Don't get me wrong, I don't think we are back to the "No dogs, no blacks, no irish" days. I just think other civilised countries are making steps to address their racism and we are certina;ly not doing that anymore, its starting to be seen as a badge of honour amongst some people. It's all connected with brexit causing a regression in basic human decency in this country. It's bound to help racists. So regression was probably the wrong word, but we certainly aren't progressing as we should be, as our contemporaries are.
 

ThePrisoner

Well-known member
Of course brexit can be fixed. Rejoin the customs union and single market.

Full membership of the EU can't happen in the next Parliament so starmer won't go near that. He had already started that Labour will make the deal and relationship with the EU work. That likely means single market as the firststep, then customs union and maybe sometime down the line full membership.
Yes that would work. People are so stupid they would have no idea what it meant anyway.
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
We wouldn't even need to join the Single Market, we could just pay for access to it like Norway, albeit they still have freedom of movement I think.

At least that way the clowns banging on about Sovereignty wouldn't be able to use that line, and they would have to admit it was just about immigration instead.

I think some just wanted out of the EU, but had no idea why, probably because the papers told them they did, so we could join the SM, CU etc, and still be out the EU and they would still think they've "won". I'd be fine with us not re-joining, and certainly don't think that would be a good plan for a manifesto, and Starmer wouldn't do it. But letting the leavers think they've won is more than fine by me, if we were back in the SM and CU.
 

gizasqueezemister

Active member
Yes that would work. People are so stupid they would have no idea what it meant anyway.
But the concept of calling people stupid / thick / racist won't work. You do get that don't you. It might work in this left leaning echo chamber but its the best way to ensure more of the same from the British electorate if this mantra remains
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
We wouldn't even need to join the Single Market, we could just pay for access to it like Norway, albeit they still have freedom of movement I think.

At least that way the clowns banging on about Sovereignty wouldn't be able to use that line, and they would have to admit it was just about immigration instead.

I think some just wanted out of the EU, but had no idea why, probably because the papers told them they did, so we could join the SM, CU etc, and still be out the EU and they would still think they've "won". I'd be fine with us not re-joining, and certainly don't think that would be a good plan for a manifesto, and Starmer wouldn't do it. But letting the leavers think they've won is more than fine by me, if we were back in the SM and CU.
Norway are part of Schengen. Now it'll never happen that we join that agreement but I would love it. The Brexitists are obsessed with immigration and stopping FoM. It would be amusing if we still had brexit but restored some of our FoM
 

Lefty

Well-known member
But the concept of calling people stupid / thick / racist won't work. You do get that don't you. It might work in this left leaning echo chamber but its the best way to ensure more of the same from the British electorate if this mantra remains

It's a tricky one, because people have to realise they did make a stupid mistake and then they have to understand why, because we can't keep making these ghastly errors. If we were all just a little smarter when it came to politics, we would be in a far better place.

We have made the wrong choices more often than the right one over the last 40 years, through ignorance, poor analysis of the causes of problems, poor analysis of the solutions to those problems, short termism, tribalism. The political system in this country exacerbates these faults rather than act as a break on them.

We need FPTP gone, we need a different method of funding parties and we need the media tackling.
 
Top