Is Brexit a major cause of the current food shortgages in the UK?

Redwurzel said:
The BBC are reporting that LIDL (German owned supermarket chain) are saying its primarily weather related. See BBC report issued 15 minutes ago.

Its difficult to know who to believe.

www.bbc.co.uk

Lidl limits sales of tomatoes, cucumbers and peppers

The discount supermarket follows rivals by restricting sales of certain fruit and vegetables.
www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...
It isn’t. It may be to you. But that is because you work so hard to ignore it. Oh and the answer is both. So yes you can satisfy your embarrassment by talking about the weather but we all know it’s a deflection. Brexit has exacerbated the problem.
 
Redwurzel said:
The BBC are reporting that LIDL (German owned supermarket chain) are saying its primarily weather related.
Click to expand...
Yes, but as has already been pointed out, it doesn't matter what the root cause of any shortage is, it is Brexit (or our exclusion from the EU zone) that is putting us at the back of the queue.

I have 10 apples and 9 friends come round and all want one.

Then some bloke who used to bully me at school rings me up asking me to hand deliver an apple.

Guess where the 10 apples are going (I'm having one too).
 
Scrote said:
Yes, but as has already been pointed out, it doesn't matter what the root cause of any shortage is, it is Brexit (or our exclusion from the EU zone) that is putting us at the back of the queue.

I have 10 apples and 9 friends come round and all want one.

Then some bloke who used to bully me at school rings me up asking me to hand deliver an apple.

Guess where the 10 apples are going (I'm having one too).
Click to expand...
He knows this. He's just trying to deflect. No idea why.
 
Scrote - What if you found out 2 apples were rotten, because they have been left out in the (unpredicted) rain, what would you do?

I do find its interesting that are just enough tomatoes for the EU supermarkets, but not enough for the UK ones.

I think I understand in your analogy, that you think, the UK is currently getting rationed, because the UK is outside the EU (needs paperwork to export from Spain) and it has aggressive supermarkets like LIDL and Spanish tomato growers are getting a sort of revenge by restricting supply to UK supermarkets. Thus the UK's current form of BREXIT is the main reason for food shortages i.e if we were in the EU we would not have hardly any shortages and somewhere like Germany would have had them instead.

This could well be happening, you do hear alot of we need to "protect" the EU/Single markets when EU ministers speak and this can easily pass down to producers. In the BBC report, a tomato producer states a a need to protect the Single Market.
 
Redwurzel said:
Scrote - What if you found out 2 apples were rotten, because they have been left out in the (unpredicted) rain, what would you do?

I do find its interesting that are just enough tomatoes for the EU supermarkets, but not enough for the UK ones.

I think I understand in your analogy, that you think, the UK is currently getting rationed, because the UK is outside the EU (needs paperwork to export from Spain) and it has aggressive supermarkets like LIDL and Spanish tomato growers are getting a sort of revenge by restricting supply to UK supermarkets. Thus the UK's current form of BREXIT is the main reason for food shortages i.e if we were in the EU we would not have hardly any shortages and somewhere like Germany would have had them instead.

This could well be happening, you do hear alot of we need to "protect" the EU/Single markets when EU ministers speak and this can easily pass down to producers. In the BBC report, a tomato producer states a a need to protect the Single Market.
Click to expand...
Have you just admitted brexit was to blame? Wow. finally reality is sinking in. You tried to bury it in your usual mountain of deflection and whataboutery but you're finally waking up. Congratulations
 
Just been to my local greengrocer. Plenty of tomatoes. No idea if they are more expensive than last time. I started supporting this shop during Covid, when supplies seems better, and get most of my fruit and veg here. Supermarkets are partly responsible for this shortage.
 
It makes sense for protectionism at times. Keep the produce in your own region and only sell the surplus if there is any. Would be nice if we did the same thing and instead of allowing our companies to sell energy on the wholesale international market we paid for it at a low cost and only sold the surplus internationally. Of course we don't do that because there are private companies that are selling the energy and they want the highest rate. It isn't Spain the country not selling us tomatoes it is businesses and if they are prioritising other regions ahead of us it is probably because we aren't willing to pay a higher price. I can guarantee if we offered to pay twice as much for tomatoes as anyone else then those private businesses would bite our hand off so is it Brexit that is causing the shortage or is it an unwillingness on our supermarkets to pay the market rate?

It could well be argued that Brexit might have caused a higher rate due to increased costs of trade but it hasn't caused the shortage.
 
Redwurzel said:
The BBC are reporting that LIDL (German owned supermarket chain) are saying its primarily weather related. See BBC report issued 15 minutes ago.

Its difficult to know who to believe.

www.bbc.co.uk

Lidl limits sales of tomatoes, cucumbers and peppers

The discount supermarket follows rivals by restricting sales of certain fruit and vegetables.
www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...

I don’t think it is difficult to know who to believe if you do the research.
The BBC never mentions Brexit as a problem for anything.
Their chief reporter Kuensberg even challenged an MP who referred to Johnson as a liar. That is a matter of fact.
Your first step is to question why the BBC are reporting on 1 retailer who doesn’t mention Brexit.

All UK food retailers are clear Brexit has an impact (I work for one of them)

Personally, I have found this the most balanced report

www.theguardian.com

Blame the weather and Brexit. But there’s more to this food crisis | Jay Rayner

The empty supermarket shelves aren’t just a blip. They’re a symptom of a dysfunctional system
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Redwurzel said:
Scrote - What if you found out 2 apples were rotten, because they have been left out in the (unpredicted) rain, what would you do?

I do find its interesting that are just enough tomatoes for the EU supermarkets, but not enough for the UK ones.

I think I understand in your analogy, that you think, the UK is currently getting rationed, because the UK is outside the EU (needs paperwork to export from Spain) and it has aggressive supermarkets like LIDL and Spanish tomato growers are getting a sort of revenge by restricting supply to UK supermarkets. Thus the UK's current form of BREXIT is the main reason for food shortages i.e if we were in the EU we would not have hardly any shortages and somewhere like Germany would have had them instead.

This could well be happening, you do hear alot of we need to "protect" the EU/Single markets when EU ministers speak and this can easily pass down to producers. In the BBC report, a tomato producer states a a need to protect the Single Market.
Click to expand...
If 2 apples were rotten then we'd share 8 between 10.

We still wouldn't give any apples to the ex-bully.

I don't actually think the UK is being deliberately targeted, though. It's just a consequence of being outside of the club.

I also think (as with everything) it's more complicated than a single factor. But Brexit definitely hasn't helped.
 
Nano said:
It makes sense for protectionism at times. Keep the produce in your own region and only sell the surplus if there is any. Would be nice if we did the same thing and instead of allowing our companies to sell energy on the wholesale international market we paid for it at a low cost and only sold the surplus internationally. Of course we don't do that because there are private companies that are selling the energy and they want the highest rate. It isn't Spain the country not selling us tomatoes it is businesses and if they are prioritising other regions ahead of us it is probably because we aren't willing to pay a higher price. I can guarantee if we offered to pay twice as much for tomatoes as anyone else then those private businesses would bite our hand off so is it Brexit that is causing the shortage or is it an unwillingness on our supermarkets to pay the market rate?

It could well be argued that Brexit might have caused a higher rate due to increased costs of trade but it hasn't caused the shortage.
Click to expand...
Nano I repect your view, but I was brought up (in my Economics classes) to believe protectionism was generally a bad thing, because consumers loses out through less choice and higher prices. Protectionism meaning tariffs, quotes, bans, non tariff barriers like customs delays, excessive customs paperwork, unnecessay vet certificates etc. I remember laughing when I saw a documentary about all Japanese Video recorders being channelled/forced through one small customs office in Poitiers in France. Leading to a very limited supply of Japanese VCRs in France in the 1980s. It also made VCRs more expensive in that market. The French Government put the priority on protecting their own industry over French consumers interests. The French Goverment said it was not illegal what they were doing. Of course when UK producers are equivalent of the 1980s Japanese VCR manaufactuer it is not so funny.
 
"I don't actually think the UK is being deliberately targeted, though. It's just a consequence of being outside of the club."

Usually its called discrimination.
 
Redwurzel said:
"I don't actually think the UK is being deliberately targeted, though. It's just a consequence of being outside of the club."

Usually its called discrimination.
Click to expand...

Not sure discrimination fits here
I don’t even think ‘targeting’ is correct.

Producers have a choice on where to send their goods.
They have to consider the economics which is intrinsically linked to convenient shipping.
As demand is high they don’t need the hassle of shipping to the UK. (One Dutch shipper reported 78 hours admin time needed to ship a consignment)

In fact they would be daft too - they will make more £ selling throughout the EU and other non EU countries with easy access.
 
When you have robust systems and institutions they can cope with a single shock or crisis, perhaps even two, be they natural disasters like poor harvests, floods or even a pandemic, or man made disasters like a war or a tanker stuck in the Suez Canal. It can struggle with 3 at the same time. In our case, Brexit is a self induced man made one that has actually attacked the system and institutions.

The EU was by and large a system set up to solve to economic problems. I'll say it a gain, it was a SOULTION to problems.

Dumping it means problems that were solved are problems again, waiting for a solution. It's been six years and no solutions. That should be no surprise when pretty much every single leading Brexit advocate neither understood what the EU actually was, nor did they have a plan to solve it. Even the Flexciters, who had a plan, knew it was madness to leave the Single Market.

Every single sector, individually, said Brexit would cause them problems. The Road Hauliers were very vocal. Their margins are so small, most need a load on their return journeys to be profitable. Poor infrastructure, paperwork and new checks means hours and hours of delays. Time is money. You only choose a ballache when you have no choice or it is extremely lucrative.
 
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Redwurzel said:
"I don't actually think the UK is being deliberately targeted, though. It's just a consequence of being outside of the club."

Usually its called discrimination.
Click to expand...
Not really. Not when you were a member of the club and then walk away. Where is the discrimination? They are treating us the same as Chad, and Paraguay, and Laos, and all third nations. How are they discriminating by treating us exactly as we asked to be treated?
 
Lefty - wasn't the EU set up as a political, social and economic union?

With the eventual aim of bringing all its separate member states together with a single currency, common economic monetary system, common laws etc. Some member states have adopted the Euro and EMS in 2001 and since.

Be more like a federal collection of States like the USA, with States rights running along side Federal rights?
 
Redwurzel said:
Nano I repect your view, but I was brought up (in my Economics classes) to believe protectionism was generally a bad thing, because consumers loses out through less choice and higher prices. Protectionism meaning tariffs, quotes, bans, non tariff barriers like customs delays, excessive customs paperwork, unnecessay vet certificates etc. I remember laughing when I saw a documentary about all Japanese Video recorders being channelled/forced through one small customs office in Poitiers in France. Leading to a very limited supply of Japanese VCRs in France in the 1980s. It also made VCRs more expensive in that market. The French Government put the priority on protecting their own industry over French consumers interests. The French Goverment said it was not illegal what they were doing. Of course when UK producers are equivalent of the 1980s Japanese VCR manaufactuer it is not so funny.
Click to expand...
I also studied economics but I recognise that things that are good for an economy aren't always what is best for the interests of the people within the economy and vice versa. In your example if the French VCR industry was large enough that the benefits of running the industry (lots of jobs, paying taxes, not paying benefits etc outweigh the negatives of slightly higher priced VCRs) then protectionism is good. Replace VCR for things that actually matter like Healthcare, energy production, farming etc then it makes sense to protect industries because the cost of not doing so would be bigger than doing it.

Lefty said:
The EU was by and large a system set up to solve to economic problems. I'll say it a gain, it was a SOULTION to problems.
Click to expand...
While some of that might be true unfortunately the problems were high costs for businesses and the solutions are low cost for businesses. The people within the systems are really irrelevant to the project. So long as businesses can operate with the lowest costs (thanks to FoM) and pay the lowest taxes (thanks to tax haven HQs) then the system is working as intended. When the system involves massive amounts of youth unemployment, mismatched economies, excess immigration that pushes down wages and increases public sector burdens etc and it is seen as a good thing then that is because the wrong questions are being asked. The EU is a neoliberal wet dream. The EU is clearly a system that works for the people that have a lot but it doesn't work so well for those that don't. Those that don't have a lot also tend not to have much of a voice either. There is also some common sense within the way the EU is run. There are still strong labour values because they understand that the key to a strong workforce is for people not to be miserable and unhealthy but the portion of people that aren't needed (the excess labour) are just ignored because there is a huge benefit of having unemployed people (low wages).

It's very easy to only look at the most zoomed out view of an economy and say x is better than y. It's more difficult to weight up all of the intricate details that make up the big number. The UK does very well economically but that is mostly because London does very well. Teesside doesn't benefit the same way as Londoners do from all the public investment in infrastructure. There is a mass exodus every year of people leaving Teesside to go and work in more prosperous regions because there aren't enough jobs on Teesside. London is one of the global financial capitals of the world but how much do the people living in London and working at Tesco or the teachers, nurses etc benefit from the billions that sector earns compared to the bankers and the billionaire investors?

"GDP is a big number so we're doing well" is a very Tory way of looking at things and it still shocks me that other left wingers buy into the concept of "the economy" so easily.
 
1finny said:
Not sure discrimination fits here
I don’t even think ‘targeting’ is correct.

Producers have a choice on where to send their goods.
They have to consider the economics which is intrinsically linked to convenient shipping.
As demand is high they don’t need the hassle of shipping to the UK. (One Dutch shipper reported 78 hours admin time needed to ship a consignment)

In fact they would be daft too - they will make more £ selling throughout the EU and other non EU countries with easy access.
Click to expand...
IFinney I used to word discrimination in the context of producers and politicians saying they needed "to protect the single market"

I agree its become less convenient if extra paperwork is needed, based on EU rules, but it appears its more than inconvenience and delays that is the issue in shortages.

Also the level of delays - 77 hours to get through EU customs with a lorry of flowers, doesn't that seem a tad excessive?
 
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