Irish now suspend Astra Zeneca vaccine

Decent_Left said:
Some on my timeline as well. Idiots that after all this is over I think I will continue to have less to do with.

Further up the thread someone quoted the Irish Govt using the "Precautionary Principle". Thats doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting. The stats as far as I can dig them out of the UK numbers are that for both Pfizer & AZ approx 10m doses of each have been given with 13 Oxford then reporting Blood Clots and 15 Pfizer reporting Blood Clots. Even weighting for the age profiles of those given the vaccine thats a lower rate than would be expected of 2 equivalent 10m populations.

Here's a thought. We know from recent figures that without the vaccine you do stand a GREATER chance of going into hospital and dying from Covid rather than taking the vaccine and having a lower chance than the general population of getting a blood clot from which you would not die

Not a big fan of British exceptionalism but on vaccines and data analysis and medical risk assessment we are light years ahead of the rest of the EU.

Just had another search and this Austrian guy explains it way better - need google translate from German on

https://twitter.com/x/status/1371033872046166025
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Indeed. We will slip back bit by bit, but one of the areas we ‘won’ by being part of the EU was on science. We were a massive beneficiary of EU funding because the EU had a mission to lead the world. We had the history and institutions to have a head start on the rest of the EU. Oxford and Cambridge were the leading universities in the EU for maths and sciences when we joined so along with our standing in the world in international diplomacy these were some of the biggest pluses for the EU/EEC to have us as members. We had scientists of international reputation and track records of excellence, not to mention the NHS. So we got more funding, which brought more of the brightest from around the world, which produced results, which brought more funding, which ......

It is no accident that the EU went to first in the world by any measure when it came to science, ahead of America, ahead of China, ahead of Japan.

It is no accident that the EMA was located here and that in turn brought more benefits for the U.K. We have a world class pharma industry. It’s no accident, no coincidence.

Science is crucial for the future of the U.K. The U.K. scientific community were adamant the EU had been very good for U.K. science and leaving would be detrimental. The bang for our buck, whatever you might think we got overall for our EU contributions, for science it was hugely in our favour.

But 17m people decided to take us out. Not only that, they have taken us out of Euratom, Horizon 2020, Erasmus and Galileo, been insulting and ungrateful to immigrants, and made it unwelcome for them to stay and costly for them to come. THAT is English exceptionalism. The idea we are brilliant on our own, that we are better than all of europe, on our own, just like we have always been, like we beat Napoleon and Hitler on our own [sic]
 
chickenrunner said:
In the case of the potential connection between AZ and blood clots no it's not. But given the incidence level (if there is a connection) and given that most of these governments must still be vaccinating the most vulnerable elements of society they are potentially exposing those people to a greater degree of risk in delaying their vaccine programs. The saying 'never take counsel of your fears' comes to mind.

All that said I understand that people find it easier to accept that someone got unlucky, caught Covid and died than if they decided to get to get vaccinated to protect themselves and that was ultimately to cause their demise.
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And I understand why people want to just get the vaccine into everybody’s arms and have done with it regardless of any potential problems.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Interesting thread this, lots of statistical references.

The statistics are fine unless you are the exception.

The vaccines have been rushed out.

I think the medics are right to be cautious if they see any problems.
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The trouble with the idea that they're just being cautious is that it doesn't make any sense. Vaccinated people are actually suffering blood clots at a lower rate than would normally be expected in the general population.

It's as if after people started wearing bicycle helmets, the statistics showed that out of a thousand wearers, 10 people had died after coming off their bikes, while among the same number of people not wearing bike helmets, 15 had died and the authorities were to say, "Because of the deaths among helmet-wearers we're going to temporarily ban people from wearing bike helmets." It wouldn't make sense, because they'd be ignoring the fact that a larger percentage of people who were not wearing helmets had died.
 
Liamo said:
The trouble with the idea that they're just being cautious is that it doesn't make any sense. Vaccinated people are actually suffering blood clots at a lower rate than would normally be expected in the general population.

It's as if after people started wearing bicycle helmets, the statistics showed that out of a thousand wearers, 10 people had died after coming off their bikes, while among the same number of people not wearing bike helmets, 15 had died and the authorities were to say, "Because of the deaths among helmet-wearers we're going to temporarily ban people from wearing bike helmets." It wouldn't make sense, because they'd be ignoring the fact that a larger percentage of people who were not wearing helmets had died.
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Is that the case for under 50s for low blood platelet numbers causing deaths / hospitalisations?
 
Liamo said:
The trouble with the idea that they're just being cautious is that it doesn't make any sense. Vaccinated people are actually suffering blood clots at a lower rate than would normally be expected in the general population.

It's as if after people started wearing bicycle helmets, the statistics showed that out of a thousand wearers, 10 people had died after coming off their bikes, while among the same number of people not wearing bike helmets, 15 had died and the authorities were to say, "Because of the deaths among helmet-wearers we're going to temporarily ban people from wearing bike helmets." It wouldn't make sense, because they'd be ignoring the fact that a larger percentage of people who were not wearing helmets had died.
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I disagree with that bicycle helmet comparison, it’s nothing like having a vaccination.

You clearly think the blood clots thing is scaremongering and misinformation?
 
HolgateCorner said:
It’s not disinformation though is it?

Look, I’ve had my first jab, I think it’s a risk with the vaccine being developed so quickly but I’ve decided to have it.

But we shouldn’t sweep any potential problems under the carpet just because it isn’t what we want to hear.
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The vaccine was quicker because of the money that was pumped into it. Safety has not been compromised as explained multiple times by those involved.
 
DearChicago said:
The vaccine was quicker because of the money that was pumped into it. Safety has not been compromised as explained multiple times by those involved.
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Yes but nobody is going to put a vaccine on the market and say the safety has been compromised are they?

I think we need to be honest with ourselves that the vaccine is out quickly not because of money but because governments are desperate.
 
The thing is, as Lefty hinted earlier, they can afford to be a little cautious whereas we've made such a balls of it, heading towards 150,000 deaths, that we've had to dive in and get it done.
 
Have you watched the Panorama on the subject? If not I’d recommend it as a basic starting point. A quick to market vaccine does not necessarily equal a rushed vaccine.
 
DearChicago said:
Have you watched the Panorama on the subject? If not I’d recommend it as a basic starting point. A quick to market vaccine does not necessarily equal a rushed vaccine.
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I’m not calling the vaccine into question, I’ve had the Pfizer one myself, all I’m saying is that there has been massive pressure on to get it out quickly so if a few problems become apparent we should not be burying our heads in the sand.

Isn’t that just common sense?
 
HolgateCorner said:
I’m not calling the vaccine into question, I’ve had the Pfizer one myself, all I’m saying is that there has been massive pressure on to get it out quickly so if a few problems become apparent we should not be burying our heads in the sand.

Isn’t that just common sense?
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Absolutely but it doesn’t appear like this is a genuine issue as explained by multiple people above.

Medicine like everything in life has an element of risk v reward. At this moment in time the reward is significantly greater than the risk.
 
DearChicago said:
Absolutely but it doesn’t appear like this is a genuine issue as explained by multiple people above.

Medicine like everything in life has an element of risk v reward. At this moment in time the reward is significantly greater than the risk.
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If it isn’t a genuine issue then fair enough, you might feel differently if you got blood clots though. The ‘risk v reward‘ equation might look different for you

I may be wrong but disappointingly I feel like there are some on this forum who just think it’s no big deal, just get on with it, don’t even stop to have a look at it.
 
HolgateCorner said:
If it isn’t a genuine issue then fair enough, you might feel differently if you got blood clots though. The ‘risk v reward‘ equation might look different for you

I may be wrong but disappointingly I feel like there are some on this forum who just think it’s no big deal, just get on with it, don’t even stop to have a look at it.
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So what do you do then? Decide there's a risk, suspend the vaccine and keep everyone locked down for longer - or at more risk from Covid.

Or - decide that the risk is worth taking, continue vaccinating the public and ease the lockdown.

No matter what you decide, some people will think it's the wrong decision. The lockdown is causing all sorts of problems in itself so probably the easier choice is to keep vaccinating.

>20k people in the UK have died since being vaccinated. How many of those died because of the vaccine? Probably a few but maybe more would have died if millions hadn't been vaccinated already?
 
HolgateCorner said:
If it isn’t a genuine issue then fair enough, you might feel differently if you got blood clots though. The ‘risk v reward‘ equation might look different for you

I may be wrong but disappointingly I feel like there are some on this forum who just think it’s no big deal, just get on with it, don’t even stop to have a look at it.
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If the data started showing significant side effects I’d definitely avoid the vaccine (my wife has had the AZ one). However it isn’t and I know 4 people who have died before their time because of this awful virus and the risk of not having the vaccine is just too high.
 
Liamo said:
What I don't understand about this is that based on every set of figures I've seen on this, the number of cases of people experiencing blood clotting problems is no higher than would normally be seen in the general population. Which would indicate that the vaccine is having no effect on the risk of blood clots.

In fact some analyses I've seen (Dr John Campbell, for instance) indicate there's actually a lower incidence of such problems than would routinely occur in people who have not been vaccinated.

So if anything, based on the numbers you could even make a case that the vaccine is protecting people against blood clots.
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1371062416390361088
 
HolgateCorner said:
It’s a global problem this, we are just a drop in the ocean.
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Not often heard 20,000,000 described as a drop in the ocean.

I wonder how many Irish die to save one or two from possible blood clots. I understand even one death from side effects is awful but so is many Deaths from not having it.
 
DearChicago said:
If the data started showing significant side effects I’d definitely avoid the vaccine (my wife has had the AZ one). However it isn’t and I know 4 people who have died before their time because of this awful virus and the risk of not having the vaccine is just too high.
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Should always monitor the vaccine on an ongoing basis though, I’m not saying you are in this category but some of the posts on this thread seem to suggest we just just don’t even acknowledge the concerns let alone look into them.
 
Ingleby_Flash said:
Not often heard 20,000,000 described as a drop in the ocean.

I wonder how many Irish die to save one or two from possible blood clots. I understand even one death from side effects is awful but so is many Deaths from not having it.
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I referred to the UK being a drop in the ocean.

I had my first Pfizer vaccine 3 weeks ago and haven’t had any ill effects at all so far.

But don’t you think any serious side issues it has (possibly) caused should be looked at?

Or is it head in the sand time?
 
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