In hindsight just 35% now think it was right to Leave the EU

And a huge percentage of rebels who object to being called ‘Thick racist xenophobic village idiots’ by teenage keyboard warriors who only put their mouse down when their mam tells them their tea is ready
 
exiledinboro said:
As I said you can’t introduce things you didn’t pledge in a manifesto

It’s one things to drop pledges you made in a manifesto but to make changes against your manifesto is to make changes with no mandate

I’m repeating myself

Please read up on these things

Please I’m repeating myself over and over again 👍
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What stops a party introducing things they didn’t have in a manifesto?
 
Leave campaign
350 million a week extra to fund NHS
Turkey about to join EU and UK will soon have millions flooding in.
We hold all the cards so new trade deals will be easy.
Northern Ireland won't be a problem.
We wil stay part of the EU single market economy.

Remain campaign
As soon as we leave there will be a punishment budget to pay for it all.
USA will send us to the back of the queue when it comes to a trade deal.
Companies will leave UK in droves, especially in the car industry.

None of it was true.
I think both sides knew what they were saying was lies or exaggerated truth.
Which set of liers and con merchants were we supposed to believe?
 
From Labour's point of view to have an aspiration to join the Single Market, but remain outside of the EU seems an useful stance to have. Its still a Leave scenario. As said before it was MPs and Governements that decided the type of Leave implemented, not the UK voters.

At present what is the difference between what say a Conservative Governement (under say Sunak) wants and a Labour government would want seem to be the same thing - to get a better flow of goods and services across what are supposed to be free trade areas (i.e. no tariffs or quotas).
 
LaPennaBianca said:
Yeah, it's very clear - but it doesn't stop it being very weird.

There isn't a scintilla of belief in the benefits of Brexit on the front bench.

For my money, Labour's position will change as soon as it's electorally beneficial to do so.
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I agree, my opinion on it is that Labour are very much in letting the dust settle mode.

It would be daft to propose any thoughts on rejoining the EU or the SM/CU as this would simply rally all the right wingers in the media and potentially make the next GE a single issue vote again.

We just have to ride out the next decade or so unfortunately, it's already baked in that we will rejoin the EU or something like it one day. As the song lyrics go 'the past is yours but the future's mine'.

For what it's worth I think it could be argued that a new government could rejoin the SM/CU without a 'mandate'. At the time of the EU referendum no firm version of leave was on the table. Even Farage's version of brexit had us with SM/CU access didn't it?
 
We couldn't join the sm in the next parliament anyway. Step 1 is closer alignment. That's what starmer has pledged. It will be the parliament after where sm membership will become an issue.
 
Cardiffdaffs said:
Another Brexit lie or 2 exposed again this morning.

1. Yes we did have veto on Turkey joining the EU and Penny of Mordor still arguing we didn't today.

2. We did not have to leave the EU to negotiate a great trade deal with NZ

https://twitter.com/x/status/1548354813536002063
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Of course the EU have a better trade deal with NZ than the UK. They are negotiating with them as a bloc. Our small island mentality does us in every time!!
 
exiledinboro said:
Labour are against FOM and the CU/SM and have no desire to be involved in the EU. Read or listen to what is being said

They have made a 5 point plan and I suggest you read it!

Any conversation beyond what they have outlined is completely useless and fantasy

Or to put another way what does Keir Starmer have to say before people accept the conversation is settled
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Again, you didn't read or understand what I wrote, I'll highlight it again:

We might see a vote in parliament in 5,10,15,20 years for increasing ties with the EU, but not joining the EU

They "might", propose something like joining the SM or CU (which you don't need to be in the EU to do), or some other alternative, but like I say that's not likely soon, as they're not in power and shouldn't campaign based on that to get into power as it could mean losing the GE or their current lead.
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Aye, they're saying that now, which is the right thing for now, and it is all settled now (they're not in power), but what they say now might not apply in 5,10,15,20 years as public opinion shifts, and economic conditions change. Policies and opinions change with time, as they should. If they don't change, then that's fine, it likely means public opinion hasn't changed enough, or we've come up with some other solution, which is also fine.

Labour might not even get a majority, and if they don't some things will change from what they've said, not saying it would mean joining the SM or CU, as they're not proposing that now, they're saying they're against it (and are against it) as they have to be against it to win the GE.

The Tories were all for being in the EU for most of their tenure, then they gave a vote on it (most of their MP's backed remain), and then they pulled away from them in the harshest way possible (by getting rid of remain MP's and bringing in leave MP's), times change.
1658048836995.png

Labour's no 1 priority is to get into government, or at least it should be, then go from there, but that's a long way away. Then they need to secure the second term before doing anything massively controversial to their voter core.

I'm not voting labour as I think there's some plan to lie now saying we're not going to join the SM/CU, and then do it anyway, I'm voting for them as they'll try and make the best of what we have (across the board) without losing voters, and win the GE as a priority. It's unlikely they would join the SM or CU anytime soon (soonest could be 2025-2030), or change stance on that soon, unless the vast majority of Labour voters support it, but it would need to be enough of a percentage where they can afford to lose those against it, and still win a GE. But that's for the GE in 2030 or whatever, or during the term after that.

You don't need FOM if there's an application process (call it a points system if you like) and you let anyone in who we need, I'm not even saying this is likely, just saying it might be possible in the long term.
You don't need to join the SM/CU to work better with the EU or work more closely with it, again this might be more of a long term thing, when there's a clear appetite for it, from their voters.

I want Labour in power (or the Tories out of power) far more than I want us back in the SM, CU or with full FOM, and want them to retain power with the least amount of friction with the EU, and closer ties can't come at the risk of losing the GE as we end up back at square one.

It's not fantasy to remove unnecessary barriers short term, if they get into power, and that was the second step of the KS plan (whilst being outside of the SM and CU).
 
Smoginexile said:
Leave campaign
350 million a week extra to fund NHS
Turkey about to join EU and UK will soon have millions flooding in.
We hold all the cards so new trade deals will be easy.
Northern Ireland won't be a problem.
We wil stay part of the EU single market economy.

Remain campaign
As soon as we leave there will be a punishment budget to pay for it all.
USA will send us to the back of the queue when it comes to a trade deal.
Companies will leave UK in droves, especially in the car industry.

None of it was true.
I think both sides knew what they were saying was lies or exaggerated truth.
Which set of liers and con merchants were we supposed to believe?
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From those:
Leave - lie, lie, lie, lie, lie
Remain - true (NI rise), true (US essentially said as much), possibly true (profitability is largely down, in the longer term companies less likely to invest and more likely to leave).

Me, I believed the experts in their field, not a bunch of chancers relying on slogans, pipe dreams and xenophobia.
 
Smoginexile said:
Leave campaign
350 million a week extra to fund NHS
Turkey about to join EU and UK will soon have millions flooding in.
We hold all the cards so new trade deals will be easy.
Northern Ireland won't be a problem.
We wil stay part of the EU single market economy.

Remain campaign
As soon as we leave there will be a punishment budget to pay for it all.
USA will send us to the back of the queue when it comes to a trade deal.
Companies will leave UK in droves, especially in the car industry.

None of it was true.
I think both sides knew what they were saying was lies or exaggerated truth.
Which set of liers and con merchants were we supposed to believe?
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There were far more Leave lies than just those, at every stage, but even the ones mentioned there were far bigger than those Remain three quoted.

As for those three

For a start Osborne didn’t actually say what you think he said. People think he said that because Leave said he said that. It has to be taken in context and what Osborne was saying was that if he were to stick to his austerity policy targets of reducing the deficit by the amount he wanted by the end of his term in office and the worst of the forecasts ie on a WTO Brexit came true, that is what it would mean. Instead Hammond took over and immediately had to abandon those targets, meanwhile the Bank of England stepped in with some serious measure they had to implement quickly.

As for the USA sending us to the back of the queue. They have! The Biden administration and Congress have made it very clear that there is absolutely no chance of any deal while we are pursuing our current path on the NIP, which is all about the Brexit decision.

Companies have left the U.K. A lot have not left but set up or moved head office to the EU. Foreign investment in the U.K. has practically ended. It wasn’t a lie about the Car Companies, they were going to leave - it was no bluff - and the only reason they haven’t is the Government have had to do deals with them behind closed doors. The details of these deals are secret but we can be sure they are massive because of that very secrecy. We haven’t even implemented the customs checks on our side of the channel yet precisely because our Leave government now know their lies have come home to roost and they would have to deal with them.

There is simply no equivalence here. It’s like trying to equate Johnson’s number 10 weekly bring your own beer, smuggle in a fridge, Friday wine time regular flouting of the very strict rules they themselves had set, with Starmers beer gate which the same people who cried ‘Project Fear’ were screaming that was the same.
 
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exiledinboro said:
I've looked at the Liberal Demicrats position which you evidently haven't

You might want to see their stance as they are actually against any short term plans to re-join
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1.Immediate UK initiatives to repair the UK–EU relationship – starting
with a declaration of a fundamental change in the UK’s approach, and
including extending mobility schemes, improving channels for foreign
policy cooperation and granting full Settled Status to all EU citizens and
their families who were living in the UK on 31 December 2020.
2.Rebuilding confidence – through seeking to agree partnerships or
associations with EU agencies and programmes such as the European
Aviation Safety Agency, Erasmus Plus, scientific programmes, climate
and environment initiatives, and cooperation on crime and security.
3.Deepening the trading relationship – including critical steps for the
British economy, such as aiming to negotiate a veterinary agreement
for trade in food and livestock, mutual recognition agreements, and
reciprocal deals with the EU on low-cost, fast-tracked work visas.
4.Applying to join the Single Market. Once ties of trust and friendship
have been renewed, and the damage the Conservatives have caused to
trade between the UK and EU has begun to be repaired, the
opportunity should arise to remove remaining trade barriers and to
restore Britain’s economy to health by applying to join the Single
Market.
 
NYboro said:
1.Immediate UK initiatives to repair the UK–EU relationship – starting
with a declaration of a fundamental change in the UK’s approach, and
including extending mobility schemes, improving channels for foreign
policy cooperation and granting full Settled Status to all EU citizens and
their families who were living in the UK on 31 December 2020.
2.Rebuilding confidence – through seeking to agree partnerships or
associations with EU agencies and programmes such as the European
Aviation Safety Agency, Erasmus Plus, scientific programmes, climate
and environment initiatives, and cooperation on crime and security.
3.Deepening the trading relationship – including critical steps for the
British economy, such as aiming to negotiate a veterinary agreement
for trade in food and livestock, mutual recognition agreements, and
reciprocal deals with the EU on low-cost, fast-tracked work visas.
4.Applying to join the Single Market. Once ties of trust and friendship
have been renewed, and the damage the Conservatives have caused to
trade between the UK and EU has begun to be repaired, the
opportunity should arise to remove remaining trade barriers and to
restore Britain’s economy to health by applying to join the Single
Market.
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It almost like they didn’t read it while accusing others of not reading it 🤣🤣🤣
 
I’m sure someone will tell me if I’m wrong but if the problem is freedom of movement wouldn’t it be easier for the UK to join the custom union which will help with some of the issues.
 
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