In hindsight just 35% now think it was right to Leave the EU

exiledinboro said:
Gaz, read the last line!

The Liberal democrats should support a longer-term objective of UK membership of the the EU

And "rejected a proposal for an immediate campaign to reverse Brexit"

But you believe what you want 👍
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It's a measured approach to rid us of the Brexit fantasy.
 
exiledinboro said:
Gaz, read the last line!

The Liberal democrats should support a longer-term objective of UK membership of the the EU

And "rejected a proposal for an immediate campaign to reverse Brexit"

But you believe what you want 👍
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There appears to be a serious flaw in your understanding of political statements. Insisting that we listen to or read, those statements on multiple occasions.
While admonishing anyone who puts up counter reasoning
That flaw is that you actually believe them.
The rest of us, for obvious reasons, tend to adopt the De Omnibus Dubitandum approach.
That being more or less. “Everything should be doubted”
Especially in regard to politicians and the ‘fluency’ of the their truths.
 
Kosovo said:
I’m sure someone will tell me if I’m wrong but if the problem is freedom of movement wouldn’t it be easier for the UK to join the custom union which will help with some of the issues.
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The problem with this is that we then can't make our own trade deals, rendering much of the Brexit experiment pointless.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
The problem with this is that we then can't make our own trade deals, rendering much of the Brexit experiment pointless.
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Well it is pointless anyway, we have nothing to trade apart from financial services. There is nothing we can do trade wise to gain and advantage. The only competitive advantage we can gain from brexit, is to set corporation tax at basement rates attracting in global companies and let me guess what people here think of that lol, and so do I btw
 
exiledinboro said:
There’s no flaw

Let’s recap the conversation

Labour are against re-joining the EU and SM/CU

And NYBoro said - however in a coalition with say the Liberal Democrat’s Labours position may need to change specifically to the SM. Or words to that affect

I then pointed out that actually in the next parliament the Liberal Democrat’s are also stating they have no desire to re-join the EU or SM/CU

So back to the compromise argument - I’m saying there can be no outcome that if these parties form a coalition can lead to SM/CU

At the moment my biggest impression is people are inadvertently or deliberately implying Starmer can’t be trusted. It might not be being said but that’s the obvious conclusion
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Word spaghetti.

The flaw still in place.
 
exiledinboro said:
There’s no flaw

Let’s recap the conversation

Labour are against re-joining the EU and SM/CU

And NYBoro said - however in a coalition with say the Liberal Democrat’s Labours position may need to change specifically to the SM. Or words to that affect

I then pointed out that actually in the next parliament the Liberal Democrat’s are also stating they have no desire to re-join the EU or SM/CU

So back to the compromise argument - I’m saying there can be no outcome that if these parties form a coalition can lead to SM/CU

At the moment my biggest impression is people are inadvertently or deliberately implying Starmer can’t be trusted. It might not be being said but that’s the obvious conclusion
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Did you actually read the part of the Lib Dem paper I posted? It clearly stated that the aim is to to, at least, be part of the single market. It will take time to repair the damage the Tories have done.
 
exiledinboro said:
There’s no flaw

Let’s recap the conversation

Labour are against re-joining the EU and SM/CU

And NYBoro said - however in a coalition with say the Liberal Democrat’s Labours position may need to change specifically to the SM. Or words to that affect

I then pointed out that actually in the next parliament the Liberal Democrat’s are also stating they have no desire to re-join the EU or SM/CU

So back to the compromise argument - I’m saying there can be no outcome that if these parties form a coalition can lead to SM/CU

At the moment my biggest impression is people are inadvertently or deliberately implying Starmer can’t be trusted. It might not be being said but that’s the obvious conclusion
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Your first point is moot. Had you written Labour have no intention of rejoining the EU/SM in the next parliament. You would be right. But you didn't. We couldn't rejoin in a single parliament in any event. You do know this, right?

You are talking nonsense, but I suspect you know you are and came on here for an argument. Best of luck.
 
Laughing said:
Your first point is moot. Had you written Labour have no intention of rejoining the EU/SM in the next parliament. You would be right. But you didn't. We couldn't rejoin in a single parliament in any event. You do know this, right?

You are talking nonsense, but I suspect you know you are and came on here for an argument. Best of luck.
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Exactly. Their statements have been made.

We now have to sit back and wait for EVENTS to interfere. Which they will😉
 
Kosovo said:
Ain’t the new trade deals pretty much worthless anyway.
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They always were going to worse than what the EU could have negotiated (and worse than full single market membership), but it's what they represent in the Brexit imaginary. So, politically speaking, how good they are isn't really that important to the Conservatives right now.

In a few years when we're still experiencing low growth and our economy remains sluggish, then the wisdom of signing them will be clear. You can't feed the country on unicorn meat.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
They always were going to worse than what the EU could have negotiated (and worse than full single market membership), but it's what they represent in the Brexit imaginary. So, politically speaking, how good they are isn't really that important to the Conservatives right now.

In a few years when we're still experiencing low growth and our economy remains sluggish, then the wisdom of signing them will be clear. You can't feed the country on unicorn meat.
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Just cheap lamb and beef from the Antipodes, while our sheep and cattle farmers have gone out of business.
 
exiledinboro said:
My point is Labour cannot be part of any efforts to reverse brexit

And even people suggesting there’s long term plans to re-join is feeding into the idea Labour can’t be trusted

The Tories are going to cut taxes and cut services and that has to be the 100% focus
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You do talk nonsense. You cannot have something that can't be achieved in a1 term manifesto. And BTW we haven't even seen a manifesto yet.
 
Way_Out_West said:
From those:
Leave - lie, lie, lie, lie, lie
Remain - true (NI rise), true (US essentially said as much), possibly true (profitability is largely down, in the longer term companies less likely to invest and more likely to leave).

Me, I believed the experts in their field, not a bunch of chancers relying on slogans, pipe dreams and xenophobia.
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Lefty said:
There were far more Leave lies than just those, at every stage, but even the ones mentioned there were far bigger than those Remain three quoted.

As for those three

For a start Osborne didn’t actually say what you think he said. People think he said that because Leave said he said that. It has to be taken in context and what Osborne was saying was that if he were to stick to his austerity policy targets of reducing the deficit by the amount he wanted by the end of his term in office and the worst of the forecasts ie on a WTO Brexit came true, that is what it would mean. Instead Hammond took over and immediately had to abandon those targets, meanwhile the Bank of England stepped in with some serious measure they had to implement quickly.

As for the USA sending us to the back of the queue. They have! The Biden administration and Congress have made it very clear that there is absolutely no chance of any deal while we are pursuing our current path on the NIP, which is all about the Brexit decision.

Companies have left the U.K. A lot have not left but set up or moved head office to the EU. Foreign investment in the U.K. has practically ended. It wasn’t a lie about the Car Companies, they were going to leave - it was no bluff - and the only reason they haven’t is the Government have had to do deals with them behind closed doors. The details of these deals are secret but we can be sure they are massive because of that very secrecy. We haven’t even implemented the customs checks on our side of the channel yet precisely because our Leave government now know their lies have come home to roost and they would have to deal with them.

There is simply no equivalence here. It’s like trying to equate Johnson’s number 10 weekly bring your own beer, smuggle in a fridge, Friday wine time regular flouting of the very strict rules they themselves had set, with Starmers beer gate which the same people who cried ‘Project Fear’ were screaming that was the same.
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You both make very valid points.
But I still think if someone from either the remain or the leave campaign told me it was raining outside I would look out of the window to check.
 
Smoginexile said:
You both make very valid points.
But I still think if someone from either the remain or the leave campaign told me it was raining outside I would look out of the window to check.
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If people had done that, if the MEDIA had done that for them, as is supposed to be their critical role in an open and free democracy, then we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in.

The information was out there but it wasn’t easy to find. After June 2016, when the debate became more about the type of Brexit that information became more widespread as time passed and communities of experts formed networks to get the truth out more effectively.

If people had took the time to check on what people were saying then they would have found that Brexiters, with the exception of the small number behind the Flexcit plan, barely told the truth about ANYTHING. Literally anything.

Remainers and experts linked to legislation, studies, statistics, reports to back up what they were saying, so people could assess the veracity of their position. Leave campaigners did not. They ignored anything which called their claims into question. I questioned everyone, Leave and Remain. I engaged with experts in every field and campaigners on both sides and the difference between them was stark.

Leave relief on the media not doing their job and presenting each sides position as equally valid and just a matter of choice/preference.
 
exiledinboro said:
Why not?

The Trade agreement is up for review in 2026

At this point the UK can easily make changes to the trade agreement and wouldn’t need parliamentary approval if we joined the SM

I’m not saying we would be granted it but it’s the obvious route back in

Obviously you know all this!

Sorry I talk what? Nonsense?

👍
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Well everything you just said, for a start. We couldn't rejoin the sm by renegotiation in 2026. Your standards have to be aligned and they are not anymore.
 
So going back to my original point about freedom of movement being a problem and if most leave voters are only bother about immigration (I voted leave so not calling anyone) I’m guessing joining the custom union wouldn’t be a issue if the Tories/Labour wanted to rejoin as its got nothing to do with FoM.
 
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