IF you voted Conservative last time

Who are you most ashamed of?

  • Boris and the Tory party as a whole

    Votes: 17 68.0%
  • Yourself

    Votes: 2 8.0%
  • The media for exposing the continual malfeasance

    Votes: 6 24.0%

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .

Lefty

Well-known member
Yikes. Corbyn lost two elections, was a massive racist, a Czechoslovakian spy, an Iranian tv personality, didn't bow properly, didn't sing the anthem properly, didn't wear a tie once, and yet Starmer's not so far behind him for unpopularity. 😬

Phew, Stu. For a minute there I was worried you would forget to turn everything around to whataboutStarmer rather than confront any failures of Corbyn and his inner circle.

It's clear, you prefer Corbyn or Johnson to Starmer.
 
Last edited:

Andy_W

Well-known member
Yikes. Corbyn lost two elections, was a massive racist, a Czechoslovakian spy, an Iranian tv personality, didn't bow properly, didn't sing the anthem properly, didn't wear a tie once, and yet Starmer's not so far behind him for unpopularity. 😬
Doesn't matter, look at the popularity of the party, and compare that to what it's been since Blair, it's night an day.

Haters gonna hate no matter what, don't need their votes, if loads of others are still happy to vote Labour (or not vote tory). Labour are just playing and adapting to the opposition, which is the best thing to do to win an election, or stop a Tory majority which nobody has been close too since Blair.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
Doesn't matter, look at the popularity of the party, and compare that to what it's been since Blair, it's night an day.

Saw yougovs poll yesterday had Labour 10pts ahead. Best since Miliband was leader in 2013. Two years later he took Labour to 232 seats. Be a great success if Starmer can match or beat that! (y)
 

Laughing

Well-known member
Doesn't matter, look at the popularity of the party, and compare that to what it's been since Blair, it's night an day.

Haters gonna hate no matter what, don't need their votes, if loads of others are still happy to vote Labour (or not vote tory). Labour are just playing and adapting to the opposition, which is the best thing to do to win an election, or stop a Tory majority which nobody has been close too since Blair.
Corbyn took away the tory majority in 2017.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
Phew, Stu. For a minute there I was worried you would forget to turn everything around to whataboutStarmer rather than confront any failures of Corbyn and his inner circle.

It's clear, you prefer Corbyn or Johnson to Starmer.

Sorry Lefty I thought I'd included just about all of Corbyns failures in there? What did I miss?

D'oh! Of course! He was a massive Putin poison supporter, and he wouldn't have tea with Trump. My apologies.

IMHO it's not really "whataboutism" to be more interested in the current Labour leader, than one who's been gone for years now. 🤷‍♂️
 

BlindBoyGrunt

Well-known member
For those who claim they don’t know why Corbyn was suspended



This of course isn’t the full and up to date story of Jeremy Corbyn’s suspension from the party.

When the long anticipated Equality and Human Rights Commission’s report into the Labour Party was released, It did not contain what many thought (or hoped) that it would. It concluded that the Labour Party under Corbyn was not institutionally anti-Semitic and that Corbyn himself was not anti-Semitic. What it did report was that there were two agents of the Party who were guilty of unlawful harassment. One a NEC member and one a Labour councillor. They did report that there had been political interference from Corbyn in the party’s efforts to deal with the problem of anti-Semitism in the party but that these incidences were in order to speed up the process.The commission therefore recommended that in future there should be no political interference in disciplinary matters.

On the strength of the findings Corbyn made a response saying; “Anyone claiming there is no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party is wrong… One anti-Semite is one too many but the scale of the problem was also dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents inside and outside the party, as well as by much of the media. That combination hurt Jewish people and must never be repeated.”
Corbyn pointed to evidence that according to public perception one third of Labour members were anti-Semitic whilst the real figure was 0.3%

However, on the day of the report’s release, and against the EHRC recommendation that there should be no political interference in disciplinary cases, Starmer took it upon himself to suspend Jeremy from the party. At this point the head of the Unite union Len McCluskey warned that if Corbyn’s suspension was not reversed it would cause internal war within the party. Len then entered into negotiations with Starmer’s Chief of Staff Morgan McSweeney, and Angela Raynor find a solution and it was agreed that if Corbyn were to make a clarifying statement, the wording of which would be agreed upon by all sides, then the way would be clear for Corbyn to re-enter the party. McSweeney reassuring McCluskey that he had the power to speak for Starmer.

A statement was then prepared and agreed upon and Jeremy delivered it. What then followed was that a five person NEC panel consisting of only two Corbyn supporters voted unanimously to reinstate Jeremy. At no point in the discussions had there been any mention of the Labour whip being removed from Corbyn, the whole idea being to reach an agreement that would bring matters back to normal. Starmer then reneged on the deal, withdrawing the whip and leaving Corbyn in the ridiculous position of being an MP and a Labour Party member but not a Labour MP and that is the situation we have today.
 

gregorgregorovich

Well-known member
Sorry you're struggling with a cohesive reply to the facts I laid bare and sorry you have to resort to childish insults. It's a sign of someone getting out of their depth. Must try harder. 😁
You didn't lay facts bare, you laid out your opinion as did I. We don't agree totally on Corbyn and the reasons that we lost the 2019 election, but when you lump those who disagree with you as 'you people' and can't see that it's condescending, well that's where I get a tad upset and resort to personal insults or should I call it, the facts I laid bare. I'm glad you've tried harder to be even more condescending and I'm equally glad to say you've succeeded. Award yourself another smiley face and a thumbs up.
 

zzzzz

Well-known member
You didn't lay facts bare, you laid out your opinion as did I. We don't agree totally on Corbyn and the reasons that we lost the 2019 election, but when you lump those who disagree with you as 'you people' and can't see that it's condescending, well that's where I get a tad upset and resort to personal insults or should I call it, the facts I laid bare. I'm glad you've tried harder to be even more condescending and I'm equally glad to say you've succeeded. Award yourself another smiley face and a thumbs up.
No. I gave you facts, figures and numbers to back up my reasoned assessment of Corbyn's woeful performance.
All you gave is opinion.
I do lump 'you people' together as those who simply will not accept that Corbyn not only destroyed the Labour Party but far worse gave us a term of Tories with a huge majority to do whatever they want.
You know the type, those that need to resort to insults because there's simply nothing else they can come up with.
More tragedy sits behind the lack of courage from Corbyn and his supporters. If he's that good, and 'you lot' are so convinced by his amazing performance, start another Party and let the rest of us concentrate on the real world in getting rid of the Tories.
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
Corbyn took away the tory majority in 2017.
Barely, but that was mostly down to May being worse than Cameron. They still lost by 55 seats and allowed the Tories to form a majority government, which Labour didn't have enough seats for. He gained about 22 seats (which accounts for the 43 swing). It was 98 the election before which is better, but 163 the year after which is an absolute joke. Either way he was never going to get in, and was getting further from it, not nearer.

I think some of the 2017 vote was remain voters hoping Labour would actually get off the fence and try do something about it (this is why I voted Labour in 2017, not for JC), as it was clear the Tories were on a path for destruction. By 2019 they realised this was not going to happen, and loads of the middle had enough of Corbyn and quite a few just wanted the brexit mess over with one way or another (but voted for the worst way of getting it over).

2010: Tory 306, Lab 258, LD 62 = +48 Tory
2015: Tory 330, Lab 232, SNP 50 = +98 Tory
2017: Tory 317, Lab 262, SNP 35 = +55 Tory
2019: Tory 365, Lab 202, SNP 48 = +163 Tory
2021/22 forecast: Tory 224, Lab 316, SNP 56 = +92 Labour

The change in the last two and a bit years has been 255, so around 127 seats, and basically I think it would have been nigh on impossible to do any better than that, or have hoped for any better than that. Labour saw the Tories blowing themselves up, and just let them get on with it. Shouting their mouths off against a massive majority in parliament achieves nothing, as Labour have no power, so just let those in power burn their own house down. There was little point telling the Tory voters they were fools, just let them watch and make their own mind up, which they have done. I've been saying for about a year this would happen, since when the Tories were polling at their highest and everyone was wetting the bed.

The tactics have been right since Starmer came in, and Corbyn wouldn't have got elected ever, and certainly wouldn't have been leading in the forecasts at much at this stage. He got pummeled in his last election, and people don't like being associated with voting for those being pummeled, which is why the change was needed.

Positive moves bring positivity, and there's scope now for Labour to not need the SNP, which could save from having indyref two, and certainly would decrease the taste for it, or likeliness of it happening.

I'm a happy Labour voter now, it's playing out well. My only concern is if BJ hangs on long enough to take away the majority of bad press, and then some other guy comes in when a lot of it is out the way and gets a bump. It will happen, but I think Tories are too far behind now, and brexit will be enough of a mess where they won't be able to claw it back, and certainly not enough to form a coalition, as everyone hates them.
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
What an oddly pointless mistruth :unsure: you can't really think nobody would know about the 2017 election and the billion pound bung surely?
Well, not a majority to get through on their own, but it doesn't mean Labour were near, they were miles away.

It's not an intentional mistruth, I meant the Tories had a majority of the seats, enough to get a coalition through easily (with the bung). There's always a bung in a coalition, whether it's cash or some policies which cost cash. It's not like the DUP spent it on a yacht (I hope).
 

zzzzz

Well-known member
I'm a happy Labour voter now, it's playing out well. My only concern is if BJ hangs on long enough to take away the majority of bad press, and then some other guy comes in when a lot of it is out the way and gets a bump. It will happen, but I think Tories are too far behind now, and brexit will be enough of a mess where they won't be able to claw it back, and certainly not enough to form a coalition, as everyone hates them.
Wish I had your confidence.
Sunak will steady the ship and it worries me that the British public were stupid enough to vote for a clear clown like Boris.
I think once Boris goes it will be a very close run contest.
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
You can be a Labour supporter and not be too keen on the Leader of the Party, they're not mutually exclusive. There's probably been tens of thousands of Labour supporters in that situation, for every labour leader in history.
I wasn't keen on Corbyn, he was an extremely poor leader and weak against the Tories, but I had little against his policies apart from some maybe being a bit unrealistic.

I like Starmer, I think he's made one or two bad choices, but lots of good ones, and he's got the tactics right, which is the most important thing.
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
Wish I had your confidence.
Sunak will steady the ship and it worries me that the British public were stupid enough to vote for a clear clown like Boris.
I think once Boris goes it will be a very close run contest.
I'm not confident on the lead, but confident the Tories won't be able to form a majority governement, or have a chance of a coalition.

I don't mind Sunak, I won't vote Tory but If I had to pick one it would probably be him. He's on the wrong side but he's calm and competent, and I think he would actually be a lot better for those most worse off than BJ certainly.

The thing is we know from Brexit how much the Tories (and the ones who jumped on the Tory ship) camp contains a lot of discriminative voters, and there's a lot of racism in the country. It wouldn't surprise me if they lost votes because of that, but they would gain more from the centre.

I don't even care if they claw most of it back or get a lead, the aim was to stop the tories getting enough seats where they have a majority, or can jump into bed with a minor party. They've burned a lot of bridges.
 

Chris_Boro

Well-known member
Wish I had your confidence.
Sunak will steady the ship and it worries me that the British public were stupid enough to vote for a clear clown like Boris.
I think once Boris goes it will be a very close run contest.

Rishi Sunak will not be the Knight in shining armour some Tories will hope he is.

For a start he alienated 3+ million people and their families in excluding them from furlough.

Then the cost of living/energy crisis and NI increases are happening on his watch. I also doubt the Tory backbenchers rate him plus if he makes a powerplay for PM, the 2019 Johnson loyal intake of MP's will see that he is to blame for stabbing Johnson in the back.
 

zzzzz

Well-known member
Sunak is my MP and I loathe it.
Anyone that's had any dealings with him locally don't have anything bad to say about him but I detest the fact that he bought his seat. And tbf he's often up here.
Yes I get most of them either do buy their seat or are entitled from a young age right through Oxbridge but with him it's even more blatant.
I just don't see who else they'd pick to replace the Clown?
 

gregorgregorovich

Well-known member
No. I gave you facts, figures and numbers to back up my reasoned assessment of Corbyn's woeful performance.
All you gave is opinion.
I do lump 'you people' together as those who simply will not accept that Corbyn not only destroyed the Labour Party but far worse gave us a term of Tories with a huge majority to do whatever they want.
You know the type, those that need to resort to insults because there's simply nothing else they can come up with.
More tragedy sits behind the lack of courage from Corbyn and his supporters. If he's that good, and 'you lot' are so convinced by his amazing performance, start another Party and let the rest of us concentrate on the real world in getting rid of the Tories.
Right, in the interests of fairness I've read every post you've made on this thread. I'm going to write down, what I presume are the facts, figures and numbers to back up your reasoned assessment of Corbyn's woeful performance.

In your original post about Foot, you said "He also was mostly responsible for a large Tory majority". Now, he may well have played a part, but don't you think the Falklands War and the desertion of the Gang of Four to form the SDP, played at least an equal part. Don't forget that in 1982, prior to the Falklands War, Thatcher was recorded as being the most unpopular Prime Minister ever and I believe Labour were ahead in the polls. LaPenna Bianca probably put it best in his response to your post

You go on to state in a later post, "When he got elected he had the opportunity to unite the party behind one of the greatest rises in membership ever. Instead he presided over a party rife with bullying, antisemitism, factionalism and bitterness, driven by Momentum and ended up with many leaving the party". You're right there was one of the greatest rises in membership ever. After Corbyn was elected as leader that is. Why do you think that is the case? Why do you think thousands of students joined? My opinion is that it was because they liked the message that was being given at the time 'For the many not the few'. You're also right that it ended with many actually leaving the party and I wish they hadn't, but, the big drop in membership has been since Corbyn resigned. You also say, "Instead he presided over a party rife with bullying, anti semitism, factionalism and bitterness, driven by Momentum. Well, I think Blind boy grunt has answered the anti semitism part in a post he made earlier. If you think the bullying, factionalism and bitterness was all from one side, well why was there an orchestrated mass of resignations from Corbyn's front bench team? Why was there a leadership challenge made only a year after Corbyn's election? Why was he screamed at by Margaret Hodge and assaulted, isn't that bullying?

You go on to say," he destroyed the Labour party". Really, last time I looked they were still there.

Nowhere in any of your post can I find the figures and numbers you refer to in making your reasoned assessment. There are a couple of facts, the rise in membership and subsequent fall, but as far as I can see that's it.

I have supported every Labour leader since I was first old enough to vote, Wilson, Callaghan, Foot, Kinnock, Smith, Blair, Brown, Mlliband, Corbyn and yes Starmer and I will support every one until I shuffle off my mortal coil.

I am sure there is one thing we can both agree on, apart from the fact that we both have differing opinions on certain things and that is TORIES OUT.

In ending, I would like to apologise for name calling because in doing that I was being a hypocrite.
 
Top
X