IF you voted Conservative last time

Who are you most ashamed of?

  • Boris and the Tory party as a whole

    Votes: 17 68.0%
  • Yourself

    Votes: 2 8.0%
  • The media for exposing the continual malfeasance

    Votes: 6 24.0%

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .

Andy_W

Well-known member
This story that Corbyn's position on brexit was as 'clear as mud' was absolute lies and spin, perpetrated by his opponents both inside and outside of the party. It used to annoy me whilst listening to 5Live when callers repeated this myth and and the hosts were either complicit or too lazy to correct them. Elsewhere his ideas were understood and accepted.

EU favours Corbyn 'deal' as a solution to the Brexit stalemate​



“There is growing support at EU level for the vision of Brexit being presented by the leader of the UK opposition, Labour's Jeremy Corbyn.”

“His proposal includes keeping the UK in a customs union with the EU, a move that would help ensure no return to a hard Border.”

“Mrs May has still to outline exactly what "alternative arrangements" she wants to the backstop that she already agreed with the EU. The prime minister is believed to have used last night's meeting to explain her desire for legally binding changes to the Brexit deal. This has been repeatedly ruled out in recent days by Mr Varadkar and a series of key EU leaders.”

“Sources believe that if any deal is to get through the UK parliament, it will need cross-party support. "We are still very much in the party politics perspective. The only hope is that, at some point, the threat of 'no-deal' disruptions would mobilise minds in the UK," said an EU diplomat.
"For now, May is still looking at her own party rather than a nationwide consensus.””

“Mr Varadkar described the Corbyn plan as "very interesting"."I think what Jeremy Corbyn has done is fleshed out a potential future relationship which is one that would mean a future relationship that is very close between the European Union and the United Kingdom, and I think in that regard they are very interesting," he said."But ultimately when dealing with these matters I deal with the democratically elected government of the United Kingdom and that is headed by prime minister May.”"

It was Starmer who without the knowledge of Corbyn or McDonnell, deviated from his written conference speech and and announced that Labour were the party of remain and floated the idea of a second referendum, which spooked the brexiteers and ultimately cost Labour the red wall.

Was there any stories from the UK, or before Feb 2019? Most had given up on JC long before Feb 2019, it was far too late by then.

From 2016 - 2019 I wasn't convinced in the slightest that he was pro-remain, but hid did slightly change tide in 2019, but that was three years too late, and a load of people had given up hope by then. Everyone knew in late 2018 that May was going out, and some hardcore no-deal fool was going to replace her.

The summary from the article below mentions:
History of Euroscepticism
On the day after the referendum, Mr Corbyn said his party would “accept the vote and move on”, and a few weeks later, explicitly ruled out a second referendum, saying “you have to respect the decision people made.”
Mr Corbyn moved closer to an actively pro-Brexit stance in March 2017, instructing Labour MPs to vote to trigger Article 50 using the strongest tool at his disposal, a three-line whip.
And in the spring, Labour’s election manifesto committed to a “jobs-first Brexit” in which Britain would “keep the benefits” of single market and customs union membership. In other words, the party intended to leave the EU with a deal.
In November 2017, Labour whipped MPs to vote against a parliamentary amendment to keep the UK in the single market and customs union.
Despite supporting a move to leave the single market and customs union (which has been associated with “harder” forms of Brexit), Mr Corbyn seemed to flirt with the remainer-friendly idea of a second ballot in the final months of 2017.
That December, he said “we’ve not made any decision on a second referendum,” which some commentators took to mean a policy announcement was due.
Yet in January 2018, he asserted that Labour was “not supporting or calling for a second referendum.”

 

Lefty

Well-known member
This story that Corbyn's position on brexit was as 'clear as mud' was absolute lies and spin, perpetrated by his opponents both inside and outside of the party. It used to annoy me whilst listening to 5Live when callers repeated this myth and and the hosts were either complicit or too lazy to correct them. Elsewhere his ideas were understood and accepted.

EU favours Corbyn 'deal' as a solution to the Brexit stalemate​



“There is growing support at EU level for the vision of Brexit being presented by the leader of the UK opposition, Labour's Jeremy Corbyn.”

“His proposal includes keeping the UK in a customs union with the EU, a move that would help ensure no return to a hard Border.”

“Mrs May has still to outline exactly what "alternative arrangements" she wants to the backstop that she already agreed with the EU. The prime minister is believed to have used last night's meeting to explain her desire for legally binding changes to the Brexit deal. This has been repeatedly ruled out in recent days by Mr Varadkar and a series of key EU leaders.”

“Sources believe that if any deal is to get through the UK parliament, it will need cross-party support. "We are still very much in the party politics perspective. The only hope is that, at some point, the threat of 'no-deal' disruptions would mobilise minds in the UK," said an EU diplomat.
"For now, May is still looking at her own party rather than a nationwide consensus.””

“Mr Varadkar described the Corbyn plan as "very interesting"."I think what Jeremy Corbyn has done is fleshed out a potential future relationship which is one that would mean a future relationship that is very close between the European Union and the United Kingdom, and I think in that regard they are very interesting," he said."But ultimately when dealing with these matters I deal with the democratically elected government of the United Kingdom and that is headed by prime minister May.”"

It was Starmer who without the knowledge of Corbyn or McDonnell, deviated from his written conference speech and and announced that Labour were the party of remain and floated the idea of a second referendum, which spooked the brexiteers and ultimately cost Labour the red wall.

It is not spin, it is absolutely the case, confirmed by multiple sources in the party including many in LOTO. You are the one falling for spin. Desist.

What Starmer did at conference was out of necessity, it was actually the true position, it was the desire of 75% of Labour members and the reason he did it was because once again it seemed like LOTO was going to back track from agreed Brexit positions within the Party and the Shadow Cabinet, as they had done many times before.

A mere three hours after the agreed position for the conference was that Labour would back another referendum and that EVERY option was on the table, McDonnell, who says he mispoke through tiredness, said in an interview on the Today programme on 24 March, that Remain would not be an option on the ballet paper, but the agreed position was that everything WAS an option, including Remain. So although it had been agreed that this would not be specifically referred to in his speech, the Left of the Party appeared to be once again betraying the majority of it, because a handful in positions of influence, were Lexiters. For what it is worth, I think McDonnell probably did mispeak, through tiredness after a very long night, as by then he was a Remainer.

Corbyn had no great interest in Brexit, was a weak leader on any issue he wasn't passionate about and allowed himself to be pushed around by his friends. He didn't know what to think and was pushed around by others, usually Milne, Murphy and the Islington Kitchen cabinet.

By the time of that speech, the country had been in favour of Remain in every single poll for a year, 2/3 of Labour supporters were in favour of Remain and 3/4 of Labour members were in favour of Remain. A progressive alliance could, just, have tossed the Tories from power but Corbyn and his cronies, because of their dithering, backtracking, mixed messaging, dismissive arrogance towards Remain voters and the other Parties, p1ssed them off to the point they felt they couldn't work with Corbyn or trust those closest to him.

Corbyn and those closest to him in LOTO were an absolute disaster for this country, because they repelled so many voters it put Johnson in No. 10 with everything resulting from that.
 
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Andy_W

Well-known member
This. We need Labour, not Tory-lite.
We do, but you won't get it, it's not possible with the makeup of our voters, and pretending it's possible does you no favours.

The "Labour" you think you want has never been in power as long as I can remember, it's never been close to being, and likely never will be in the rest of my life. There's too many people in the centre and right of centre (by centre, I mean in-between Labour and Tories over the last 30 years or whatever).

Starmer's not Tory-lite, and neither is the rest of the Labour MP's, they're far better than that, but even if they were, Tory-lite is still far better than the current crop of extreme Tories, voting Tory won't help, and neither will voting any other party other than Labour in most English seats.

Scotlands gone to the SNP, and won't come back, so we need everyone who is against Tories all on the same team, otherwise you might as well be batting for the other side.
 

JackG

Well-known member
If you think the Tory press won't start attacking Starmer as we get closer to the election, think again. They will attack him all guns blazing and a lot of it will be supposition, innuendo and downright lies. If he eats a bacon sardine, I hope there are no hack pack photographers about.
Where can I buy these bacon sardines?
 

r00fie1

Well-known member
[Published December 2019]

Starmers call for a second referendum - rejecting Brexit - appears to have been forgotten in 2022?!

The shadow Brexit Secretary has said he is ‘seriously considering’ standing to become the next Labour leader

[Extract:]

Brexit

As shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir played a key role in shaping Labour’s EU strategy and in strong-arming the government to be more transparent with its own plan to leave the EU.

In December 2016 he forced Theresa May to release details of her Brexit plan, widely seen as a victory for Sir Keir and Labour.

He has also been critical of the argument that the Leave vote was a mandate for a so-called “hard Brexit” and has been outspoken in his belief that Labour should campaign for a second public vote on any future Brexit deal.

As a result of his position on Brexit and his support of Remaining in the EU, he was kept relatively quiet by Labour during the leadership campaign

Since then he has hit out at the campaign approach, arguing that Labour did not do enough to counter Boris Johnson’s “get Brexit done” slogan, saying that the party “should have taken it down”.

“I don’t think we tackled the ‘get Brexit done’ slogan strongly enough,” he told The Guardian. “We should have taken it down. Frankly I’d have liked the opportunity to have done it.”
 

r00fie1

Well-known member
And there are of course similarities with the last far left Labour Candidate.... Michael Foot.
He also bombed at the polls.
He also was mostly responsible for a large Tory majority.
And look what happened after that.
No
 
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