If we had all players available would you start Clarke?

Aren't overall passing completion figures a bit of a nothing stat for centre halves in our set up?

90% of their passes are 5 to 20 yard passes to the other CB, the deepest midfielder or the full back outside of them?

The fact that Fry has such high numbers when he is probably the weakest with the ball at his feet out of all our centre backs demonstrates that perfectly to me.

As has been said, they all have strengths and weaknesses, for me Fry just isn't anywhere ruthless or tough enough to really make a step up, he has all the physical and most of the technical attributes to be a dominant centre back in the champo, but he has never really become one. His goals return is pretty pathetic for a 6' 3' CB who goes up for every set piece, he just always underwhelms me, he's not dreadful by any means, just a bit disappointing from what I believed he would become.

I think the best 'pair' in the Southgate / Big Ugo style would be a Rav / Clarke (or Lenihan / Clarke if a bit more experience / nous is required) leaving Lenihan / Fry as cover.

That is a pretty strong set of four, if we are sticking with a 'two' next season.

We need two starting full backs outside of them still, but I'm confident that with whatever form and injuries throw at us, we should be okay at CB, one of the only positions we can truly say that about, especially with question marks over Hackney, McGree, Forss and Dieng possibly leaving.
 
Caesium137 said:
Aren't overall passing completion figures a bit of a nothing stat for centre halves in our set up?
Click to expand...
Not really, no. If you give the ball away, you give it away. regardless of formation. The team play in a similar tactic so comparing to each other is valid....comparing to another team who play more direct would be wrong.
 
BoroMart said:
Not really, no. If you give the ball away, you give it away. regardless of formation. The team play in a similar tactic so comparing to each other is valid....comparing to another team who play more direct would be wrong.
Click to expand...
But they're all pretty high and near each other % wise (within about 5%?) and the player nearly everyone agrees is the weakest and least comfortable on the ball has the highest. McNair who is roundly touted as the most comfortable on the ball and a better passer due to him being a midfielder previously has the second worse. I don't see how that can be used / trusted as a parameter.

If there was a statistically significant percentage difference I would believe in its significance, but every CB being so close and the anomaly of Fry being best makes it a pretty unreliable indicator of how good at passing the players actually are for me.

Passing Completion Rate:

Fry - 89.4% (The highest in the squad)
Lenihan - 89.1%
RVB - 88.1%
McNair - 86.4%
Clarke 84.1%
 
Caesium137 said:
Aren't overall passing completion figures a bit of a nothing stat for centre halves in our set up?

90% of their passes are 5 to 20 yard passes to the other CB, the deepest midfielder or the full back outside of them?

The fact that Fry has such high numbers when he is probably the weakest with the ball at his feet out of all our centre backs demonstrates that perfectly to me.

As has been said, they all have strengths and weaknesses, for me Fry just isn't anywhere ruthless or tough enough to really make a step up, he has all the physical and most of the technical attributes to be a dominant centre back in the champo, but he has never really become one. His goals return is pretty pathetic for a 6' 3' CB who goes up for every set piece, he just always underwhelms me, he's not dreadful by any means, just a bit disappointing from what I believed he would become.

I think the best 'pair' in the Southgate / Big Ugo style would be a Rav / Clarke (or Lenihan / Clarke if a bit more experience / nous is required) leaving Lenihan / Fry as cover.

That is a pretty strong set of four, if we are sticking with a 'two' next season.

We need two starting full backs outside of them still, but I'm confident that with whatever form and injuries throw at us, we should be okay at CB, one of the only positions we can truly say that about, especially with question marks over Hackney, McGree, Forss and Dieng possibly leaving.
Click to expand...
I think that's part of the problem. He doesn't really play as a physically imposing centre half, that's not his game. He reads the danger incredibly well and better than anyone else we have. I think he's developed that under Woodgate. You talk about "making the step up" but he's been a regular under every manager we've had since he came into the squad. That speaks volumes about his quality.
 
Caesium137 said:
But they're all pretty high and near each other % wise (within about 5%?) and the player nearly everyone agrees is the weakest and least comfortable on the ball has the highest.
Click to expand...
Small %s change games. Most fans have their prejudices, some times it's good to step back, look at the stats and view again with new information. Fry is third highest passing from CB (maybe people are over stating his issues), Clarke is the weakest (but he does do some eye catching runs, but stats show consistency). I do like Clarke, bit more of a solid defender, and I think his stats are probably impacted by being ring rusty for a year.
 
Humpty said:
I think that's part of the problem. He doesn't really play as a physically imposing centre half, that's not his game. He reads the danger incredibly well and better than anyone else we have. I think he's developed that under Woodgate. You talk about "making the step up" but he's been a regular under every manager we've had since he came into the squad. That speaks volumes about his quality.
Click to expand...
I think he is physically imposing enough in most games, I mean more mental toughness, a ruthlessness to win and to fight and battle to keep a clean sheet, a willingness to throw himself at the ball to score or protect a clean sheet, that sort of step up, to being the senior pro and main man, taking on the responsibility and driving his team mates on to keep clean sheets and win games.

In a similar number of games Ayala had about 20 goals and about thirty yellows and a fair few reds, Fry had about two goals and and one or two reds (and one was very harsh). Different players obviously and Ayala was a dirty grappler, but the mental fortitude of an Ayala, Gibson or Leadbitter in Fry the player is what I was thinking he'd become, he hasn't at all.

As you say, he's played under every manager and we've never been quite good enough to achieve our targets in that time, and for the last couple of seasons the defence has been a bit of a weakness.
 
Caesium137 said:
90% of their passes are 5 to 20 yard passes to the other CB, the deepest midfielder or the full back outside of them?

The fact that Fry has such high numbers when he is probably the weakest with the ball at his feet out of all our centre backs demonstrates that perfectly to me.
Click to expand...
That's why they need to be read alongside the progressive distance stat as well. Which actually shows that Fry goes forward more than McNair, Clarke and VDB as well.

You can break the passing stats as far as you want. Fry always looks competent.

Long passes (Passes 30 Yard +)

Attempted per Match

Clarke - 11.0
McNair - 9.44
Fry - 8.64
Lenihan - 5.88
VDB - 4.91

Success Rate

Clarke - 56.4%
McNair - 63.0%
Fry - 67.8%
Lenihan - 66.0%
VDB - 70.1%

So Clarke does pass longer more often than any of our other CB's but he is also the most wasteful in this range.
VDB Passes short more often than any of the other defenders. So your implication that passing short more often means that player is weaker with the ball would still point to VDB being weaker with the ball at his feet.

Percentage of passes played short (Less than 15yard)

Clarke - 31.3%
McNair - 37.2%
Fry - 33.4%
Lenihan - 42%
VDB - 44.8%


@BoroMart is correct that VDB's stats will be slightly skewed by the fact he played a few games at RB / LB early in the season as full backs will consistently have poorer passing stats than CBs
 
BoroMart said:
Small %s change games. Most fans have their prejudices, some times it's good to step back, look at the stats and view again with new information. Fry is third highest passing from CB (maybe people are over stating his issues), Clarke is the weakest (but he does do some eye catching runs, but stats show consistency). I do like Clarke, bit more of a solid defender, and I think his stats are probably impacted by being ring rusty for a year.
Click to expand...
It isn't a prejudice to say Fry is the least comfortable of the centre backs with the ball at his feet surely?

Are his stats simply padded by taking the safest and easiest option more of the time? Is that the best for the team over all, or are those taking more risks to draw / beat the opposition press better over a season?
 
Caesium137 said:
But they're all pretty high and near each other % wise (within about 5%?) and the player nearly everyone agrees is the weakest and least comfortable on the ball has the highest. McNair who is roundly touted as the most comfortable on the ball and a better passer due to him being a midfielder previously has the second worse. I don't see how that can be used / trusted as a parameter.

If there was a statistically significant percentage difference I would believe in its significance, but every CB being so close and the anomaly of Fry being best makes it a pretty unreliable indicator of how good at passing the players actually are for me.

Passing Completion Rate:

Fry - 89.4% (The highest in the squad)
Lenihan - 89.1%
RVB - 88.1%
McNair - 86.4%
Clarke 84.1%
Click to expand...
Fry is on the 91st percentile for CBs

Clarke is on the 53rd percentile for CBs

Don't understate how much of a difference 5% is when in comes to passing success rate.
 
B_G said:
So Clarke does pass longer more often than any of our other CB's but he is also the most wasteful in this range.
VDB Passes short more often than any of the other defenders. So your implication that passing short more often means that player is weaker with the ball would still point to VDB being weaker with the ball at his feet.
Click to expand...
I'd also say we are seemingly mixing it up and going longer more often now too, rather religiously sticking to the very short game we were earlier in the season, and the keepers passing / calmness probably plays into it too.
 
Caesium137 said:
It isn't a prejudice to say Fry is the least comfortable of the centre backs with the ball at his feet surely?

Are his stats simply padded by taking the safest and easiest option more of the time? Is that the best for the team over all, or are those taking more risks to draw / beat the opposition press better over a season?
Click to expand...
The stats disprove that though. He goes forward more than all our other CBs bar Lenihan.

He also passes longer than both VDB and Lenihan
 
BoroMart said:
Clarke is statistically the one who gives possession away the most and has the worst passing success.

Rav is our second best passer, after Lenihan
Click to expand...
You're looking at pass percentages which is pretty worthless.
Clarke is far more progressive in his passing. It's one of the reasons we have been more successful in recent weeks. Passing forward rather than side to side until we inevitably give the ball to the opposition in a dangerous area.
 
Regarding all of these stats people are coming out with on the thread.

Are you sure about the veracity of them? Do you know what they actually mean. How do you know the footballstatz website you are using isn't counting a headed clearance as a forward pass? How do you know it isn't all made up b***ks.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
Regarding all of these stats people are coming out with on the thread.

Are you sure about the veracity of them? Do you know what they actually mean. How do you know the footballstatz website you are using isn't counting a headed clearance as a forward pass? How do you know it isn't all made up b***ks.
Click to expand...
I tell you what. You watch the games back and count all the passes and disprove them
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top