If Any Future Lockdowns- Should Be The Unvaccinated

[changingman]

If this answer to the question about usage of any system, institution or product is that "we need fewer people to use, less often" it's usually being mismanaged or under funded.

The tories are ideologically opposed to a National Health System (funding something with taxation which could otherwise be funded privately) so it is no surprise that they want to spend the minimal amount possible to keep it "afloat".

I mentioned recently that the Swedish government have installed a permanent Covid-19 ward in the main hospital in Stockholm with sufficient capacity to deal with upsurges in demand. It might never be used, and certainly not at its full capacity but it's the right thing to do for all parties.

 

[Colgates_shaving_foam]

Well over and above funding it properly, which won't happen before winter, I suggest that hospitals triage. They do it every day and will continue to do it. It has proved the most effective way to save the most lives, time and time again. That is why it is used today, as it was in the boer war.

I think you are suggesting we let non-vaccinated people die in favour of vaccinated people? How does that stop hospitals becoming overwhelmed?

Please point to where I have stated that?

My argument is that we could try and prevent non-vaccinated (by choice) people from catching covid and ending up in ICU by locking them down. Not house arrest, allowing them to go to work, shop, see friends/family, just not attend pubs, football, mass events etc.

 

[Laughing]

Please point to where I have stated that?

My argument is that we could try and prevent non-vaccinated (by choice) people from catching covid and ending up in ICU by locking them down. Not house arrest, allowing them to go to work, shop, see friends/family, just not attend pubs, football, mass events etc.

Apologies, lots of people responding with different viewpoints. So you are all for covid passports? Fine, I don't agree but it is less inhumane than assessing, on individual worth, whether treatments are given.

I can see other countries are going down the road of covid passports to limit unvaccinated people attending certain venues and events. As I say, I don't agree and that is largely for 2 reasons. I don't like any 2 tier society and it wouldn't work to bring down covid significantly. The majority of hospital cases, infections and transmissions are among the vaccinated. Not because vaccinated people are not more protected, but because the protection reduces quicker than we can re-vaccinate and will continue to do so unless we throw ridiculous resources at vaccinations or we get a better, more long lasting vaccination. Our best efforts at boosters is about 500k daily, which is really good, but would still take, what 120 days to do the entire population.

I guess we could hope that each successive booster improves the efficacy and longevity or that vaccinated people catch covid, increasing their immunity, perhaps without compromising their health, if recently vaccinated.

that might be a way out of this. I do suspect that the virus will burn itself out due to natural immunity, vaccinations and previous infections.

 

[Colgates_shaving_foam]

So instead of blaming the government for the monumental underfunding of the NHS which has been 'under pressure' every winter since I can remember, the wider population, as witnessed on here, are blaming those who haven't had the vaccine instead. There will be suits in Whitehall who will be pleased as punch with the reactions of the great British public. Government let off the hook yet again.

Totally agree that the fundamental issue is criminal undefunding of the NHS from the tory government, i pointed this out in post #33 in this thread.

That isn't going to be fixed this Winter and not until we can get rid of this corrupt shower we have currently.

 

[Andy_W]

Say that 90% of over 50's are vaccinated, could we not allocate 90% of COVID ICU beds to the vaccinated (and medically exempt) and 10% to the unvaccinated? They're both getting a fair split there, for the population. Surely the unvaccinated wouldn't have an issue with this, they're getting their fare share?

Then when the unvaccinated beds are full, they can blame the people in the unvaccinated ICU in front of them?

 

[Laughing]

Say that 90% of over 50's are vaccinated, could we not allocate 90% of COVID ICU beds to the vaccinated (and medically exempt) and 10% to the unvaccinated? They're both getting a fair split there, for the population. Surely the unvaccinated wouldn't have an issue with this, they're getting their fare share?

Then when the unvaccinated beds are full, they can blame the people in the unvaccinated ICU in front of them?

Or vice versa Andy which I wouldn't agree with either.

 

[the_holgate_roof]

Are you telling me that everybody in ICU beds are unvaccinated and in there in the first place because of covid related complications?

They have just as much right (those without the covid vaccine) to seek and be given medical help as those who have been vaccinated.

Yes but they are not helping themselves

 

[the_holgate_roof]

This is a terrifying precedent to set, what's even worse is how many people support this.

I don’t think it is, to incentivise the right behaviours.

 

[Laughing]

Yes but they are not helping themselves

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. They are not helping themselves not getting vaccinated, all other things being equal. But they shouldn't be medically penalised for that.

 

[Laughing]

I don’t think it is, to incentivise the right behaviours.

Eek let a few die to incentivise the others? Or just announce it as policy to incentivise?

 

[Andy_W]

Or vice versa Andy which I wouldn't agree with either.

I'm not saying I agree with it, it would be impossible to manage for a start. I'm asking whether the 10% unvaccinated think they deserve more of a share of the ICU beds, for their level of risk?

I don't see why a 50 or 80 year old unvaccinated covid patient should think they deserve a bed more than an 80 year old vaccinated covid patient. If that was me (assuming I was the unvaccinated guy), I'd appreciate the treatment, and feel like I've paid for it, but I'd feel a bit of a d*ck that the 80 year old vaccinated guy had to suffer as a result, especially seeing as the vaccinated guy would likely be occupying the bed for a lesser duration (assuming they both survived).

 

[the_holgate_roof]

I don't think anyone disagrees with that. They are not helping themselves not getting vaccinated, all other things being equal. But they shouldn't be medically penalised for that.

Potentially they should as their actions are willful and they know the risks, not saying refuse treatment and nobody would refuse treatment but a priority staircase or triage, based on how ill they are and what measures they have put in place to protect themselves.

 

[Laughing]

I'm not saying I agree with it, it would be impossible to manage for a start. I'm asking whether the 10% unvaccinated think they deserve more of a share of the ICU beds, for their level of risk?

I don't see why a 50 or 80 year old unvaccinated covid patient should think they deserve a bed more than an 80 year old vaccinated covid patient. If that was me (assuming I was the unvaccinated guy), I'd appreciate the treatment, and feel like I've paid for it, but I'd feel a bit of a d*ck that the 80 year old vaccinated guy had to suffer as a result, especially seeing as the vaccinated guy would likely be occupying the bed for a lesser duration (assuming they both survived).

Got it. You might feel that way. We currently use a system that saves the most lives, with the resources you have, triage.

It's the best system there is when you have sub optimal care facilities.

 

[Laughing]

Potentially they should as their actions are willful and they know the risks, not saying refuse treatment and nobody would refuse treatment but a priority staircase or triage, based on how ill they are and what measures they have put in place to protect themselves.

Is never going to happen because its inhumane. We never treat patients based on their lifestyle but on the likelihood of them getting better.

An alcoholic is likely to be behind someone else with liver disease for a transplant. Not because they are an alcoholic, but because they are less likely to survive long term.

That's triage used correctly. Triage is never used to prioritise treatment based on percieved worth of the treatment.

I have said this a couple of times, anyone who agrees with this have very dubious morals.

 

[NYboro]

Is never going to happen because its inhumane. We never treat patients based on their lifestyle but on the likelihood of them getting better.

An alcoholic is likely to be behind someone else with liver disease for a transplant. Not because they are an alcoholic, but because they are less likely to survive long term.

That's triage used correctly. Triage is never used to prioritise treatment based on percieved worth of the treatment.

I have said this a couple of times, anyone who agrees with this have very dubious morals.

Triage is only likely to prioritise vaccinated over unvaccinated as they are more likely to survive.

 

[Laughing]

Triage is only likely to prioritise vaccinated over unvaccinated as they are more likely to survive.

No it won't. The level of illness will dictate how resources are used because that is how you define the likelihood of survival and it is irrespective of vaccination status. Vaccination status may mean you are more or less ill and that would be used to triage, and rightly so. But it is done without reference to the vaccination status, as it should be.

 

[NYboro]

No it won't. The level of illness will dictate how resources are used because that is how you define the likelihood of survival and it is irrespective of vaccination status. Vaccination status may mean you are more or less ill and that would be used to triage, and rightly so. But it is done without reference to the vaccination status, as it should be.

I stand by my statement. You cannot triage without knowing the vaccination status - it is known that vaccinated patients are more likely to survive.

 

[Subbuteo_171]

How many more arguments about covid are there going to be on here?

Can‘t we just move them all to a different location so as not to clog up the board with the same dozen or so people recreating Groundhog Day?

 

[Laughing]

I stand by my statement. You cannot triage without knowing the vaccination status - it is known that vaccinated patients are more likely to survive.

That probably isnit true NYboro. How ill you are defines your likelihood of survival. If you are vaccinated and dying, you are still vaccinated and dying.

 

[NYboro]

That probably isnit true NYboro. How ill you are defines your likelihood of survival. If you are vaccinated and dying, you are still vaccinated and dying.

It is well-known that if you are vaccinated you are much less likely to die. Until I retired, I was getting weekly briefings from the hospital system where I worked - in New York where vaccination is mandatory for everyone who works in healthcare.