Good article on the Russian Economy imploding

WeeGord said:
Do you have an issue with this?
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Yes I do actually. In my opinion it's terrible timing. Granted most will say it's all a part of the propaganda part of the war, doesn't sit right with me. How much in total have we sent over there? Whilst the UK is on its knees? The yanks have just sent another $60 billion to then whilst their fuel prices continue to rise and punish the average Joe American.

When innocent Ukranians are dying in a NATO proxy war whilst you pose for a magazine you aren't a leader you are morally bankrupt, NATO controlled parasite, whoring himself out to Western war mongerers. He should be at a negotiation table now with Putin, too many people have already suffered and died.
 
InglebyUTB said:
The sanctions are not having the impact the west thought they would or would have us believe.

The ban on Russian energy is not working, it’s crippling our own citizens and economies with no end in sight.

It won’t be long now before people say this isn’t a price worth paying.

www.bloomberg.com

Russia Current Account Hits Record on Surging Energy Exports

Russia’s current account surplus hit a record of $70.1 billion in the second quarter of the year, as surging revenues from energy and commodity exports helped offset the impact of US and European sanctions imposed over President Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.
www.bloomberg.com www.bloomberg.com
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Sanctions are almost always a long term strategy. Putin is pumping out propaganda about how they can weather the response from the west, all they have to do is wait - the French and Germans are already wavering. Funny that the countries formally under control from Moscow are almost all steadfast in their opposition to Russian aggression, almost if they understand better than us what could happen…

Anyway, what part of sovereign Ukrainian territory are you willing to give up to go back to some kind of normal? If a peace deal is signed, how long before another military build up on the border, only this time better prepared to take cities like Kyiv, Odessa?
 
Randy said:
Yes I do actually. In my opinion it's terrible timing. Granted most will say it's all a part of the propaganda part of the war, doesn't sit right with me. How much in total have we sent over there? Whilst the UK is on its knees? The yanks have just sent another $60 billion to then whilst their fuel prices continue to rise and punish the average Joe American.

When innocent Ukranians are dying in a NATO proxy war whilst you pose for a magazine you aren't a leader you are morally bankrupt, NATO controlled parasite, whoring himself out to Western war mongerers. He should be at a negotiation table now with Putin, too many people have already suffered and died.
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Dear me you do have some odd takes on things Randy

1. What do you propose the West do? Stop providing weaponry and assistance to Ukraine? Putin has shown his hand here he is trying to re-establish a Russian area of influence around his borders. We let him take The Crimea and ignored his wars in Georgia and elsewhere. If we let him carry out regime change or assimilation of Ukraine what next? The Baltic States? Finland?

2. "NATO proxy war" what a foolish thing to say. Ukraine was invaded by a large aggressive neighbour

3. Negotiating with Putin. He's a bully and a nation backed gangster. Labelling Zelensky as "morally bankrupt"... oh do grow up.

Yeah the Vogue thing is in dubious taste but as you yourself admit we need to keep this conflict in our minds it is on our doorstep.
 
Muttley said:
Dear me you do have some odd takes on things Randy

1. What do you propose the West do? Stop providing weaponry and assistance to Ukraine? Putin has shown his hand here he is trying to re-establish a Russian area of influence around his borders. We let him take The Crimea and ignored his wars in Georgia and elsewhere. If we let him carry out regime change or assimilation of Ukraine what next? The Baltic States? Finland?

2. "NATO proxy war" what a foolish thing to say. Ukraine was invaded by a large aggressive neighbour

3. Negotiating with Putin. He's a bully and a nation backed gangster. Labelling Zelensky as "morally bankrupt"... oh do grow up.

Yeah the Vogue thing is in dubious taste but as you yourself admit we need to keep this conflict in our minds it is on our doorstep.
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So we just let people continue to die? How is that an odd take on things?

There are two options, remove Putin with force. An outside party doing that starts world war three. An inside party potentially starts a power struggle civil conflict.
Or.
Get people around the negotiation table, Putin, Zelinsky and third party mediators. Hash out a deal, find out what the citizens of contested areas want, anti Russian, pro russian, ukranian, and come to an agreement.

Are the people of Ukraine still in the Ukraine ever going to see any of these billions of dollars? Not likely.
War only makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.
 
At
Smoggle said:
Sanctions are almost always a long term strategy. Putin is pumping out propaganda about how they can weather the response from the west, all they have to do is wait - the French and Germans are already wavering. Funny that the countries formally under control from Moscow are almost all steadfast in their opposition to Russian aggression, almost if they understand better than us what could happen…

Anyway, what part of sovereign Ukrainian territory are you willing to give up to go back to some kind of normal? If a peace deal is signed, how long before another military build up on the border, only this time better prepared to take cities like Kyiv, Odessa?
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How long is long term? One year? Three? Five? Ten?

How much will our energy bills be by then? £6k? £7k? £10k?

How long is too long and how much is too much?

Whatever Ukraine are willing to sacrifice should be entirely down to them, but as it stands the UK and US are intervening and telling them not to negotiate for peace and not to concede an inch of terroritory.

How’s that working out?
 
Randy said:
Yes I do actually. In my opinion it's terrible timing. Granted most will say it's all a part of the propaganda part of the war, doesn't sit right with me. How much in total have we sent over there? Whilst the UK is on its knees? The yanks have just sent another $60 billion to then whilst their fuel prices continue to rise and punish the average Joe American.
Click to expand...

It's publicity/ marketing, it's just a sign that the world is with Zelensky, and nobody is going to do anything like that for Putin, eventually these things trickle through to the Russian people and it increases opposition to the war.

USA sending £60bn (20Tn GDP) to try and stop a war/ food war/ energy war/ recession could be peanuts for them, and the same applies to us. It's like paying for a plumber to fix a leaking pipe on your bath, you either pay the £100 to fix it, or you pay the £2,000 for a new bath, patched up ceiling and new carpet.

The longer this goes on the more the strangle hold of sanctions tightens around Putin's neck, the original post/ article describes it well.

Even if it wasn't cost effective, it would be worth it to hold up democracy/ freedom and would act to prevent them doing the same thing to other countries.

Randy said:
When innocent Ukranians are dying in a NATO proxy war whilst you pose for a magazine you aren't a leader you are morally bankrupt, NATO controlled parasite, whoring himself out to Western war mongerers.
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horse****.

Randy said:
He should be at a negotiation table now with Putin, too many people have already suffered and died.
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By negotiating, do you mean giving up half of his country and people? That's not negotiation, it's surrender.
 
Muttley said:
Dear me you do have some odd takes on things Randy

1. What do you propose the West do? Stop providing weaponry and assistance to Ukraine? Putin has shown his hand here he is trying to re-establish a Russian area of influence around his borders. We let him take The Crimea and ignored his wars in Georgia and elsewhere. If we let him carry out regime change or assimilation of Ukraine what next? The Baltic States? Finland?

2. "NATO proxy war" what a foolish thing to say. Ukraine was invaded by a large aggressive neighbour

3. Negotiating with Putin. He's a bully and a nation backed gangster. Labelling Zelensky as "morally bankrupt"... oh do grow up.

Yeah the Vogue thing is in dubious taste but as you yourself admit we need to keep this conflict in our minds it is on our doorstep.
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The war hawks and Daily Mail columnists but the only way this war is resolved is around the negotiating table.

Yes it would be better to outright defeat Putin, but that isn’t going to happen.

The sooner people realise this the better.
 
InglebyUTB said:
At


How long is long term? One year? Three? Five? Ten?

How much will our energy bills be by then? £6k? £7k? £10k?

How long is too long and how much is too much?

Whatever Ukraine are willing to sacrifice should be entirely down to them, but as it stands the UK and US are intervening and telling them not to negotiate for peace and not to concede an inch of terroritory.

How’s that working out?
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How much will your energy bills be in a destroyed city? If we just left Ukraine to Russia, or prove Putin right by losing interest, how long before he’s emboldened to attack the Baltics. What happens then? We give up in Ukraine and European security and indeed world security becomes very brittle. That will make your bills pale into insignificance.

What about my mates in Kazakhstan, he’s used the same rhetoric for that country as he has for Ukraine. How much of their land are you willing to sacrifice?
 
Smoggle said:
How much will your energy bills be in a destroyed city? If we just left Ukraine to Russia, or prove Putin right by losing interest, how long before he’s emboldened to attack the Baltics. What happens then? We give up in Ukraine and European security and indeed world security becomes very brittle. That will make your bills pale into insignificance.

What about my mates in Kazakhstan, he’s used the same rhetoric for that country as he has for Ukraine. How much of their land are you willing to sacrifice?
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You seem to be making the classic war hawk mistake of confusing peace negotiations with surrender.
 
InglebyUTB said:
Tell me the alternative.

Regime change?
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We’re in an incredibly difficult situation. Show weakness and Putin may decide NATO doesn’t have the backbone to defend the Baltics etc - that would be nasty either way. Placate and you find yourself in Germany’s position thinking they can cajole Putin into being a good world citizen whilst relying on him for energy security. Ignore or lose interest and Putin will try to take more land as he’s consistently proved with the various little excursions around his borders.

The only way is a long term strategy that will keep him as a pariah. If we show weakness the you can be pretty sure Xi will be considering his dream of taking Taiwan.

It’s not hawkish. It’s realistic. I don’t want war, I love Russia and it’s one of my favourite places, but they have a dangerous leader with a large cult of personality who is willing to use leverage against the west. If we return to normal like many want to do, certainly in the business world, this will likely be the end of sovereign Ukraine for a long time and the FSU and former Warsaw Pact nations that understand Russia far better than us will feel incredibly vulnerable.

I’ve listened to Zhirinovsky and Putin when I lived in Kazakhstan openly talking about it not being a real country and only in existence because or Russia, Zhirinovsky went further and talked about annexing land there - exactly the same language used towards Ukraine.

Again, negotiating means giving up land - maybe Crimea would be palatable given its historic Russian ties, but what else should Ukraine have to give up just to have a couple of years before the next inevitable invasion? If you think they wouldn’t try again then you haven’t been paying attention to Putin since his “spheres of influence” speech in 2009 I think it was.

The only way to beat Putin is a united front of sanctions and helping Ukraine. The sanctions are only just starting to bite but they will get worse and Putin isn’t always popular amongst the population, I doubt a coup is on the cards but we could get to a position where the west no longer is beholden to an authoritarian dictator. It won’t be easy, but it’s not like all the problems in this country are a result of Putin.
 
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