r00fie1
Well-known member
Always question where the source is based and always investigate in depth: who funds them and what is their professional / track history.
Dont rely on what is dubbed "main stream media".
Good article on the Russian Economy imploding
- Thread starter Lefty
- Start date
Dont rely on what is dubbed "main stream media".
People keep talking like Putin is a sensible , rational person when he isn’t . He is using a very biased view of history to justify what he is doing . His own military advisor has come out and admitted the Soviet Union return is the plan
The Ukrainians , Baltic states , Georgians don’t want to live under that oppression
If Europeans are upset that their bills are going up this winter , remember it can get a lot worse:
- if Putin feels he can take the baltics , he will and put nato in direct conflict with Russia .
- China is watching closely how the west responds . If the response is **** as people don’t want feel uncomfortable for a bit with energy , they will invade Taiwan . Taiwan is the leading producer of semiconductors for our technology . If China gains control of it , then our technological advancement is going to go to ****
This is Europe’s Czechoslovakian moment again, like with hitler . Does europe once again appease evil or does it stamp on this cockroach before he is allowed to take off ?
Always question where the source is based and always investigate in depth: who funds them and what is their professional / track history.
Dont rely on what is dubbed "main stream media".
With all due respect , the sources you cite are just as open to bias as anyone
You strike me as a very left wing person , so your sources will reflect that
Muttley
Well-known member
You are foolishly assuming that Putin is bothered about bloodshed. He has demonstrated that he has no regard for the blood shed at his behest of his own soldiers, sailors and airmen. Why would he want to prevent further bloodshed? When a nation is invaded it has the right to defend itself.
Godwin's Law breach detected - In 1939 you would have presumably negotiated with Hitler when he invaded Poland.
Same thing, at some point you have to stand up to aggression otherwise before you know it you will have a major conflict on your hands. This is also serving to make China think twice about trying their luck against Taiwan, showing the effectiveness of Western weaponry and that the West is united against the aggression of Russia despite attempts to divide that have been a long time planned.
r00fie1
Well-known member
Glad you`ve got an inquisitive mind, but never make assumptions.
Which sources in particular?
r00fie1
Well-known member
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Recession lurking as U.S. economy contracts again in the second quarter
The U.S. economy unexpectedly contracted in the second quarter, with consumer spending growing at its slowest pace in two years and business spending declining, which could fan financial market fears that the economy was already in recession.
TeessideCleveland
Well-known member
I don't see Ukraine regaining Donbas and Crimea, but I will say that I don't see any reason why Crimea should be an exception. It was annexed just as illegally as the Donbas
Randy
Well-known member
So the other option is a world war then? Because without negotiation that's what will happen.
China doesn't give a two ***** about what's happening in Russia, when China want to invade Taiwan, they will, if it means a conflict with the Americans then they will more than likely have factored that in too and fight them too. That scenario occuring is more dangerous to the world than the current one in Ukraine.
Putin needs to go, forcibly removing him physically or financially won't work.
I think Crimea is gone and I think even Zelinsky would admit that, although not publicly. It was annexed illegally but there is some evidence that this wasn’t a totally unpopular move due to the history of Crimea being ‘Russian’ until it was ceded in soviet times by Khrushchev. It’s not right but this might be a significant bargaining chip if Ukraine get the upper hand.
The Donbas is more fluid, and if it was anti-Ukraine then many of the towns and cities wouldn’t fight as ferociously as they have. Ukraine could retake at least some of it but I think the battle around Kherson should tell us more. I have read they are gearing up for a big move against Russian occupied areas in the east after the summer, we’ll see if that’s the case.
Muttley
Well-known member
No appeasement would make World War more likely. At the moment we have the Russian Army in Ukraine a limited if particularly nasty conflict on our doorstep.
What is your solution? Give Putin Ukraine and hope he's happy with that? Let him keep what he has now and hope he's happy with that? Let him keep The Donbas and hope he's happy with that?
Plainly you have not been paying attention, he is not going to be happy to stop there. Yes, he will pause and regroup but then he will probably go again so how much do we let him have then? Or the next time?
All you are doing is bleating about it without offering anything other than we need to remove Putin. How?
Randy
Well-known member
Come to some agreement regarding land with Ukrainian citizen input on the condition that Putin removes all Russian forces from the country and begins the process of removing himself from power. Could be a good starting point.
What's your solution? More financial penalties against one of the most wealthy families in the world? Hasn't done a great deal has it other than mildly annoy some oligarchs who can't visit St Tropez on their boats and prevented Maximov the builder from grabbing an egg mcmuffin on his way to work.
Muttley
Well-known member
Randy
Well-known member
No idea. Unless you think I'm Putin or his wife?
Redwurzel
Well-known member
I do see a threat to countries bordering Russia that were in the Soviet Union if Putin is allowed to have his own way.
But on the other hand letting him save face in Russia could prevent conflict by giving some concessions such as dropping membership of NATO for Ukraine. The borders of the Ukraine have extended beyond areas that say contain a majority population that would be happy to be allied to NATO. An example are the ex mining regions of the Donbas.
I think Putin is dangerous, but not in the same league as Hitler. The whole conflict as a bit of the feel of the Falklands in the sense a dictator needs to increase his power at home by invading a foreign country (George Orwell in 1984 had countries (Oceania) constantly at war to justify the power of Big Brother).
I will admit I don't know what ethnic groups live in the Crimea, but I do know the British Army fought battles there in the 1850s against the Russians. So I assume the Crimea was then part of Russia?
I get the impression the Donbas is like Northern Ireland with opposing factions within it. Am I wrong?
But on the other hand letting him save face in Russia could prevent conflict by giving some concessions such as dropping membership of NATO for Ukraine. The borders of the Ukraine have extended beyond areas that say contain a majority population that would be happy to be allied to NATO. An example are the ex mining regions of the Donbas.
I think Putin is dangerous, but not in the same league as Hitler. The whole conflict as a bit of the feel of the Falklands in the sense a dictator needs to increase his power at home by invading a foreign country (George Orwell in 1984 had countries (Oceania) constantly at war to justify the power of Big Brother).
I will admit I don't know what ethnic groups live in the Crimea, but I do know the British Army fought battles there in the 1850s against the Russians. So I assume the Crimea was then part of Russia?
I get the impression the Donbas is like Northern Ireland with opposing factions within it. Am I wrong?
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Muttley
Well-known member
Yes, I'd worked that out.
So in summary. You have nothing to add. You think that Putin should just tell his armies to pack up and go home and stop being nasty and he will then retire to his dacha by a Siberian lake and smoke kippers for the rest of his days. Unfortunately in the real world that is not going to happen, he has decided he wants to enlarge his country essentially trying re-establish a Russian super state surrounded with puppet states as a buffer against the evil machinations of NATO. Which he conveniently paints as an aggressive alliance to excuse his own aggression.
I'm sorry but you really do have no idea what you're talking about.
There is a historical case for Crimea being part of Russia, it was ceded to "The Ukraine" when both states were part of the USSR I believe simply to make administration easier. Ethnicity in the area is mixed and the countries have historically been allied for most of their existence, indeed many Russians and Ukrainians have linked if not intertwined families. The Donbas is more contentious, the conflict in the area was largely stirred up by Russia to excuse the annexation of the provinces. Any attempt to establish a people's wish would be very difficult now, Russia has moved a lot of Ukrainian loyalists out of the area and any attempt to poll the remaining population as to their allegiances would undoubtedly be subject to electoral intimidation and fraud.
I think the best hope for a lasting peace in the area is in defeat for the Russian army in Ukraine.
Randy
Well-known member
Sorry Muttley, I forgot you were an expert on all things Putin and Russia. You asked for an idea after I suggested negotiation is the way out of this war, as it is with most conflicts. Seems you'll be happy with the violent resolution. Unfortunately that's not going to work for my family, I haven't dug a bunker in my back yard yet.
I can't see Ukraine beating back Russian forces without direct intervention from NATO countries. As in soldiers on the ground.
Meanwhile Zelinsky can sell a few more magazine exclusives and appeal to a crowd of ***ed up teenagers at a festival for more support. His pleas for direct help from Johnson, Macron and Biden have fallen on deaf ears.
It was Russian Empire which was multi-ethnic like the British Empire. Crimea has Russian, Ukrainian and Tatar populations amongst various other groups. The entire Tatar population was deported under Stalin but later allowed to return.
During the Soviet Union most major entities were allocated Soviet Socialist Republic status (such as Russian SSR, Uzbek SSR, Armenian SSR etc) and as the glorious revolution was to last forever the ceding of Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR, essentially within the same country, wasn’t a big issue. Upon independence however and in the years following this has become more of an issue until it was taken back by Russia.
The reason for issues in places like Chechnya and Dagestan is that these are considered ‘Russian’ territory despite the populations being a different ethnicity- they were never SSR’s and therefore their independence claims from Russia have been dismissed, with violent consequences.
There are those who would like to align with Russia, most probably wouldn’t have chosen this route as the fighting attests. There were legitimate complaints about Ukraine’s handling of Russian population/ language/ shared history that could have conducted far better in my opinion, certainly not worthy of invasion and dehumanising propaganda though. There wasn’t an insurmountable problem until the Russian tanks rolled in however.
But Putin has been very selective and hasn’t targeted Uzbekistan for example, for its almost complete decommunisation and move away from Russian - although the Russian population did largely leave upon independence.
Churchill said: "meeting jaw to jaw is better than war"
It’s true, but Churchill famously was against appeasement of a brutal dictator.
Putin’s language is genocidal and it is very possible he will be designated as a war criminal, it’s there for us all to see how he views the ‘traitors’ and ‘Nazis’ of Ukraine, they cannot begin negotiations from a weak position or this will absolutely happen again.