Fraudiola

atypical_boro said:
Needs to win the CL again to be the šŸ
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This is like when people were saying 'Messi needs to win the WC to become the goat'

The most recent WC went down to a penalty shoot out! Are we seriously suggesting 1 single moment, defines the career of greatness?

If Pep didn't win another CL in his career, it would be very difficult to argue against him for being the greatest manager of all time.

He doesn't just win games and titles/trophies, he revolutionises football.
 
Marvanelli said:
This is like when people were saying 'Messi needs to win the WC to become the goat'

The most recent WC went down to a penalty shoot out! Are we seriously suggesting 1 single moment, defines the career of greatness?

If Pep didn't win another CL in his career, it would be very difficult to argue against him for being the greatest manager of all time.

He doesn't just win games and titles/trophies, he revolutionises football.
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Well thereā€™s still a question mark over Messi being the GOAT, some still think itā€™s Pele. But it at least ended all the debates about Ronaldo.

At the end of the day debates will continue as long as debatable points exist. Some will still say Pep isnā€™t as good as Ferguson etc. Its a game of opinions.
 
Marvanelli said:
So if 2 of his teammates who scored their penalties in the shoot out, missed, which meant France went on to win the WC, this would have affected your opinion of Messi being the greatest? When he has no say or control over his two team mates penalty kicks?

That's crazy.
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Well why bother having World Cups then? If winning them doesnā€™t really matter.
 
TeaCider said:
He'll probably need to beat Inter for the narrative to stop.

Clearly one of, if not the best managers in the world, but it's the Champions League that people hold over him.

Same nonsense people did with Messi because he hadn't won a trophy with Argentina
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The haters will still say he should have won it more times
 
Marvanelli said:
There was never a debate about Ronaldo to be fair.

Those who try and debate that either hate Barca, love Madrid or support Man Utd.

Any unbiased football fan knows Messi is levels above Ronaldo.
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There was a legitimate debate to be had for a long time. If there wasnā€™t, people wouldnā€™t have discussed it.
 
atypical_boro said:
Well why bother having World Cups then? If winning them doesnā€™t really matter.
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Don't get where you're going here.

Of course they matter.

But Argentina winning the WC or not, doesn't take away the fact he's the greatest footballer of all time.

On his individual performances for Argentina in World Cups alone, you can see that. The fact he needs his team mates to step up too, to help achieve World Cup success shouldn't matter.
 
Marvanelli said:
Don't get where you're going here.

Of course they matter.

But Argentina winning the WC or not, doesn't take away the fact he's the greatest footballer of all time.

On his individual performances for Argentina in World Cups alone, you can see that. The fact he needs his tea mates to step up too, to help achieve World Cup success shouldn't matter.
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Nothing is a fact.

A lot of Argentinians think Maradona is still better than Messi. A lot were won over by the fact Messi equalled his achievements of winning a World Cup. Not everybody views the world the same.
 
Marvanelli said:
This is true.

You only need to read the thread at the start, that Pep has a lot of critics, who will just criticice him regardless of what he achieves in his managerial career.
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Itā€™s not so much that. But saying anything is ā€œthe best of all timeā€ will always create debate. Thatā€™s a fact of life.
 
I think Messi is probably the GOAT.

I think Pep is probably the GOAT.

But neither of these opinions are facts, and never will be.

Pep winning the CL again will reinforce the above opinion.
 
atypical_boro said:
Itā€™s not so much that. But saying anything is ā€œthe best of all timeā€ will always create debate. Thatā€™s a fact of life.
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Oh without doubt.

And I enjoy the debates. Messi v Pele v Maradona.

But the Messi v Ronaldo debate was never a debate IMO.

Ronaldo is a phenomenal footballer and has been incredible (one of the best ever), but he unfortunately was around at the same time Messi was, who has achieved more than him.
 
Marvanelli said:
Oh without doubt.

And I enjoy the debates. Messi v Pele v Maradona.

But the Messi v Ronaldo debate was never a debate IMO.

Ronaldo is a phenomenal footballer and has been incredible (one of the best ever), but he unfortunately was around at the same time Messi was, who has achieved more than him.
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He has. But there was a time when their achievements werenā€™t as far apart as they seem now. In my opinion it was a legitimate debate. Iā€™m sure some people still think Ronaldo is a better player. Not me, but they will exist.
 
Loop said:
Why? it's not like he hasn't done it before.
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There are a handful of managers whoā€™ve won it with more than one club. To be definitive GOAT you have to put all these arguments to bed. I have no doubt at all that Pep will eventually do that, even if itā€™s not this season. But if he got to another 6 CL semi-finals and lost them all, I think it would be fair to say he has a bit of a CL hoodoo that could put his GOAT status into question, for example. Iā€™m not saying that will happen though and I think he will cement his GOAT status very soon.
 
atypical_boro said:
There are a handful of managers whoā€™ve won it with more than one club. To be definitive GOAT you have to put all these arguments to bed. I have no doubt at all that Pep will eventually do that, even if itā€™s not this season. But if he got to another 6 CL semi-finals and lost them all, I think it would be fair to say he has a bit of a CL hoodoo that could put his GOAT status into question, for example. Iā€™m not saying that will happen though and I think he will cement his GOAT status.
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That's fair enough, although people that don't agree will always search for something else that he must achieve. Much like the Messi debate, whenever he achieved something there was always someone out there pointing out that he hadn't done X. Which is stupid given the amount he or them both have achieved in football. I suppose it's all about opinions, so each to their own, but for me Pep has took football to another level & then some which is beyond his trophies.
 
Loop said:
That's fair enough, although people that don't agree will always search for something else that he must achieve. Much like the Messi debate, whenever he achieved something there was always someone out there pointing out that he hadn't done X. Which is stupid given the amount he or them both have achieved in football. I suppose it's all about opinions, so each to their own, but for me Pep has took football to another level & then some which is beyond his trophies.
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Yes, but I just think it comes back to my earlier point. Saying anything is the best of all time is always going to lead to debate, because itā€™s such a big statement. Some people will still say Brian Clough is the GOAT because of his achievements with provincial clubs etc. Its hard to prove anything beyond all doubt.

Iā€™ve got a mate who thinks a robot could manage this City team. Iā€™ve never asked if he posts on here or what his username is/wasā€¦.

He does have an obsession with peopleā€™s hairlines though.
 
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