Ex Forces don't count for any help according to Sunak

[MolteniArcore]

Ex forces, in my experience, are more likely to be Tory voters. Wonder if that will change considering the disdain the Tories show them?

And before people pile on, this is only my personal experience. I have a few ex forces in the family and live close to a couple of bases. A few mates are also ex-forces. All of the ex-forces that come in my local are pretty far to the right of the political spectrum. Maybe Reform will be who they choose?

 

[Andy_W]

Ex forces, in my experience, are more likely to be Tory voters. Wonder if that will change considering the disdain the Tories show them?

And before people pile on, this is only my personal experience. I have a few ex forces in the family and live close to a couple of bases. A few mates are also ex-forces. All of the ex-forces that come in my local are pretty far to the right of the political spectrum. Maybe Reform will be who they choose?

Were they Tory voters from largely red wall places, or from the North? That was my experience, 90% of the lads I met seemed to be from the North East, North West, Scotland or Wales. Don't recall many from London or South East.

Loads of them started as Labour voters too I'm sure, but as soon as they started to earn 25-30k and had loads of disposable income living on camp, then I think they seemed to think they were middle class or higher or earning enough where they thought Tories cared about them.

Absolutely far right too, and I barely noticed this at the time. I really noticed it within a year or two of leaving though.

 

[jam69]

Why do the british legion sit on around 80 million in cash reserves ? Surely if we have homeless ex service personnel the money should be spent helping ?

 

[Nano]

I don't have any skin in the game so I might be way off but I think that some people see on TV etc how the forces are treated in the US (everyone thanking them for their service, forces days in sports like the NFL, always singing the national anthem and having forces guys visible etc) but that attitude doesn't exist in the UK. The US spend a lot more on defense than we do and they have to justify it so they use propaganda to make them all out to be heroes at all times. They need it for recruitment and support. They use terms like "serve" as if it was some sort of duty when it is really just a job but making it seem like more than a job means they can pay less.

We don't have the reverence the US have for their forces. They should be respected, like anyone should, but not revered. They shouldn't get special treatment. They should get the treatment/support they need should they have issues with mental health, finding employment etc but everyone should have that. They shouldn't get discounts etc by default but if businesses want to offer that then that's up to them. I am in the NHS and I benefit from NHS discount all the time. I get 20% off at McDonalds. They aren't doing it because they think NHS staff deserve more than other people but there are 1.4m people in the NHS that will choose to go to McDonalds because they get a discount. There isn't preferential treatment when you need to go to hospital, school, call the police or receive benefits etc and there shouldn't be. They should all be adjudged on the greatest need.

It goes without saying that there seems to be an increased chance of homeless people being ex-forces and that needs to be addressed as part of the support. If we identified any group of people as more likely to become homeless then we should be putting in measures somewhere in the system to combat that. That isn't preferential treatment in any way. It's just targeting resources at the greatest need.

 

[BoroMart]

I don't have any skin in the game so I might be way off but I think that some people see on TV etc how the forces are treated in the US (everyone thanking them for their service, forces days in sports like the NFL, always singing the national anthem and having forces guys visible

It's absolutely ludicrous in the US. I regularly used to see military walking about town, I'd fly quite a bit with my job, Military got to leave the plane before the rest of us, and the americans used to applaud them as they sat in their seat waiting for them to leave. Mental, but then I guess that's the least mental thing about american society.

 

[Norfolkred1]

Why do the british legion sit on around 80 million in cash reserves ? Surely if we have homeless ex service personnel the money should be spent helping ?

There are a number of charities sat on a fortune, Help for Heroes, RAFA, SSAFA etc. I see Help for Heroes as a massive business but not a lot being seen to help those in need and by that I mean the amputees and those with life changing injuries.
I don't agree with Forces discounts either but I also cannot see why students getting discounts as well.

 

[viv_andersons_nana]

I understand that those in the armed forces know what they’re signed up for, are paid and trained, etc, and that there are plenty of tw*ts who join up, but the country - or the government running it at least - has a duty of care to those who fight their wars so they don’t have to.

There should be no soldiers coming home missing limbs, traumatised, suffering all manner of mental health issues, and being left to fend for themselves or end up on the streets or out of work and drifting towards the gutter.

It’s disgusting. I agree we should be looking after everyone in need of it but to my mind if you’re going to send people to fight in wars across the globe then you should have no choice but to support them throughout, including once they return to civilian life.

Governments shouldn’t be able to get away with trivialising this stuff, cutting funding and closing down support networks left, right and centre. Soldiers are just another group to filed be alongside the elderly, the sick, minority groups, the vulnerable. Teachers, doctors, nurses. Anyone who isn’t a rich white person who endorses and votes for Thatcherite policies basically.

If you want people to go and fight and blow up humans, buildings, infrastructure, on your behalf and endure everything that that entails then you look after them when they come back. It’s not something you can decide to opt out of. Just because some of them are arsèholes doesn’t mean you don’t put support mechanisms in place for those who need it.

 

[Druss_The_Legend]

Pete Doherty/ Libertines Walk on gig at the Arena, I've probably seen people write or spoke to about 2000 people who claimed they were at that gig

I can't comment on the military side of things as I never served, but I was definitely at the Arena that night working the doors. I briefly met Pete Doherty and shook his hand after the gig. It was busy that night and lots of extra security in although it wasn't the busiest I had seen the place and I can't remember a lot of trouble that night(the busiest and most trouble was some kind of rave night with MCs coming from different areas, it was an absolute nightmare with one poor lad out with his girlfriend getting smacked with a brass knuckle and set up on by a group of lads looking for trouble).

 

[Norfolkred1]

I understand that those in the armed forces know what they’re signed up for, are paid and trained, etc, and that there are plenty of tw*ts who join up, but the country - or the government running it at least - has a duty of care to those who fight their wars so they don’t have to.

There should be no soldiers coming home missing limbs, traumatised, suffering all manner of mental health issues, and being left to fend for themselves or end up on the streets or out of work and drifting towards the gutter.

It’s disgusting. I agree we should be looking after everyone in need of it but to my mind if you’re going to send people to fight in wars across the globe then you should have no choice but to support them throughout, including once they return to civilian life.

Governments shouldn’t be able to get away with trivialising this stuff, cutting funding and closing down support networks left, right and centre. Soldiers are just another group to filed alongside the elderly, the sick, minority groups, the vulnerable. Anyone who isn’t a rich white person who endorses Thatcherite policies basically.

If you want people to go and fight and blow up humans, buildings, infrastructure, on your behalf and endure everything that that entails then you look after them when they come back. It’s not something you can decide to opt out of.

Good post fella.

 

[Andy_W]

It goes without saying that there seems to be an increased chance of homeless people being ex-forces and that needs to be addressed as part of the support. If we identified any group of people as more likely to become homeless then we should be putting in measures somewhere in the system to combat that. That isn't preferential treatment in any way. It's just targeting resources at the greatest need.

My bet would be that this is down to data quality, and other influence which overrides the forces part. I've no proof of this (other than experience), but my bet would be if you compared the qualifications of those prior to going in the forces, with others of a similar level in/ out, then homelessness would be quite close.

I still think forces homeless might be more but I bet it would narrow the gap right down, and I'll eat my hat if it's not because more people get institutionalised into a simple life with little self control/ responsibility, rather than making out that everyone's got PTSD or had major injuries/ medical discharge long before their pension starts paying out.

People in the forces largely don't have the drugs excuse either, as everyone is getting drug tested often, it's basically protecting you from a massive hole which is open to others. Same with healthcare and dental etc, nobody in the forces is waiting more than a day for an appointment, I'll bet you that. Same with surgeries or treatments which are stopping them from working (which can be treated).

There's another side too, which doesn't get talked about anywhere near as much. The forces gave so many people good, free education with zero debt (like how I benefited) and there are so, so many people who abused that to move from a 25k job to a 50k a year job, and then a 100k a year job. I even know a few on over 200k, and loads of those are tax free too! I can't think of any forces guy who left around the same time as me, from a similar job as me, who now isn't earning at least double the pay they were getting in the forces and double the national average wage, and that's in places which are not well off at all.

 

[Andy_W]

It's absolutely ludicrous in the US. I regularly used to see military walking about town, I'd fly quite a bit with my job, Military got to leave the plane before the rest of us, and the americans used to applaud them as they sat in their seat waiting for them to leave. Mental, but then I guess that's the least mental thing about american society.

The US just loves anyone with guns, they're not right in the head.

 

[xxlshirts_fit_all]

I kinda agree, ok they can put their life on the line, but that’s a choice, we all have a choice how to lead our lives and most people that end up in the forces do it because they’ve got limited options available to them. That’s true the world over not just the Uk.

Thanking them is one thing, respecting them for doing their job is right, but giving preferential treatment across wider society doesn’t sit with me. In fact I’d much prefer we give our nurses preferential treatment. …and yes I totally agree that there are huge swathes of politically gullible people in the army, from the support Yaxley-Lennon to the royals and Farage. I’d guarantee they’ll be at least 75% pro-brexit too, due to the ultra patriotic brainwashing that occurs, and yesI get that it's a necessity to do that, but it does happen.

I do agree that there is sometimes an overbearing demand that all forces and veterans should be revered as some kind of god but the guy here was almost fishing for bites and was successful. Even though I didn’t fully understand his rant…

I do think it’s disingenuous to state most end up in forces due to limited options as though doing so is a last choice… there’s plenty of jobs that are less fulfilling or paying less than joining up… I’d say that there’s plenty that don’t have what it takes to join up, but I don’t mean that in a disparaging way… at the end of the day it’s horses for courses and a choice…

However, the choice they do make should give them some benefit both during and after that service, after all… we’d all be speaking German if it wasn’t for their service

 

[viv_andersons_nana]

My bet would be that this is down to data quality, and other influence which overrides the forces part. I've no proof of this (other than experience), but my bet would be if you compared the qualifications of those prior to going in the forces, with others of a similar level in/ out, then homelessness would be quite close.

I still think forces homeless might be more but I bet it would narrow the gap right down, and I'll eat my hat if it's not because more people get institutionalised into a simple life with little self control/ responsibility, rather than making out that everyone's got PTSD or had major injuries/ medical discharge long before their pension starts paying out.

People in the forces largely don't have the drugs excuse either, as everyone is getting drug tested often, it's basically protecting you from a massive hole which is open to others. Same with healthcare and dental etc, nobody in the forces is waiting more than a day for an appointment, I'll bet you that. Same with surgeries or treatments which are stopping them from working (which can be treated).

There's another side too, which doesn't get talked about anywhere near as much. The forces gave so many people good, free education with zero debt (like how I benefited) and there are so, so many people who abused that to move from a 25k job to a 50k a year job, and then a 100k a year job. I even know a few on over 200k, and loads of those are tax free too! I can't think of any forces guy who left around the same time as me, from a similar job as me, who now isn't earning at least double the pay they were getting in the forces and double the national average wage, and that's in places which are not well off at all.

Nobody should be waiting more than a day to see a doctor or dentist if they need it. If a soldier leaves the forces and puts their training and qualifications to good use and gets a good job on good money then good luck to them.

You don’t start making life harder for those in or who’ve served in the armed forces to try and make up for deficiencies in your policies elsewhere, you should be ensuring that everyone has access to these perceived ‘benefits’ instead.

The money is there to ensure everyone has what they need to live properly and with dignity. Again, it’s soldiers today but tomorrow it’ll be someone else.

“Look, look at what they’ve got! That’s why you can’t have what you need, they’ve got it all! Bloody soldiers/teachers/nurses/poor people/elderly/sick/gay/brown people.”

We have a duty of care to all of our citizens. The money needed to ensure everyone has what they need is and has consistently disappeared upwards and been stuffed offshore, to absolutely obscene levels.

We need to talk about tax avoidance, corporate theft and private dividends and subsidies before we even think about discussing what a soldier may or may not be getting.

 

[BoroMart]

There's another side too, which doesn't get talked about anywhere near as much. The forces gave so many people good, free education with zero debt (like how I benefited) and there are so, so many people who abused that to move from a 25k job to a 50k a year job, and then a 100k a year job. I even know a few on over 200k, and loads of those are tax free too! I can't think of any forces guy who left around the same time as me, from a similar job as me, who now isn't earning at least double the pay they were getting in the forces and double the national average wage, and that's in places which are not well off at all.

Yes about half the IT network engineers I've worked with over the years have come from a forces background, earning anywhere from 500-1,000 a day. All educated free of debt.

 

[Andy_W]

Nobody should be waiting more than a day to see a doctor or dentist if they need it. If a soldier leaves the forces and puts their training and qualifications to good use and gets a good job on good money then good luck to them.

You don’t start making life harder for those in or who’ve served in the armed forces to try and make up for deficiencies in your policies elsewhere, you should be ensuring that everyone has access to these perceived ‘benefits’ instead.

The money is there to ensure everyone has what they need to live properly and with dignity. Again, it’s soldiers today but tomorrow it’ll be someone else.

“Look, look at what they’ve got! That’s why you can’t have what you need, they’ve got it all! Bloody soldiers/teachers/nurses/poor people/elderly/sick/gay/brown people.”

We have a duty of care to all of our citizens. The money needed to ensure everyone has what they need is and has consistently disappeared towards and been stuffed offshore, to absolutely obscene levels.

We need to talk about tax avoidance, corporate theft and private dividends and subsidies before we even think about discussing what a soldier may or may not be getting.

100% totally agree on doctors/ dentists, that was my point. The public deserve far better public services, similar to what those in the forces get, and that's even just the chefs, admin, photographers etc, not even talking about the 10% who do the actual fighting etc.

I'm not saying make the lives harder not by a long shot. I'm saying bring everyone else up to parity and improve services for all, and maybe start with the other public sector workers who get a worse deal (nurses, cops, teachers etc). The "forces get a bad deal" thing is largely a myth from my experience and I found it to be the complete opposite by a crazy margin. I don't know anyone saying the nurses get a good deal, and have never seen "ex nurse" or "ex cop" mentioned when one of those is in hardship.

The conditions I had to suffer in 3 visits to "wars", which in reality was more like 2 wars and one holiday were absolutely nothing compared to what my family had to work with in the local hospitals when covid was bad for over a year or what they deal with week in and week out in A&E etc. Comparing 2003-2005 at war or the NHS isn't fair mind, as the NHS was ran better then, but the NHS now is like a warzone. I feel embarrassed to call it war now, compared to what public sector workers deal with now at least.

Tax avoidance is massive, it needs sorting out.

 

[h_m_boro]

Think the US has an overwhelming guilt about how the Vietnam vets were treated for a decade+. WWII and Korean vets just come home and got on with it, Vietnam......very different. So once they kind of got over this in the 80s, the levels of flag shagging just got......silly.

So now, it's a huge thing for any ex military - 3 years spent in the stores as a Marine in San Diego, never leaving California - teary eyes and a "hero" medal. Crazy.

Couple of lads I went to school with signed on at 16, spent their time as squaddies. Mates on FB. BrEXit comes about, both reveal their far right, racist, Tory/Farage/Y-L admiration. Didn't sit well with my left leaning views and they both unfriended me.......

 

[Andy_W]

Yes about half the IT network engineers I've worked with over the years have come from a forces background, earning anywhere from 500-1,000 a day. All educated free of debt.

Really, IT engineers? Jesus

Do they know what they're doing? Every bit of IT or tech we were using was decades old. Everything took so long to test and get approved, that by the time it finally came in it was well old!

There are quite a few nerds in the forces mind (like myself), and loads of people playing computer games etc, so I bet a lot of that what they know was self taught and maybe they did a top up course on resettlement.

I suppose my last job was quite IT heavy, and only a few were allowed to work on the computers/ record the work, mostly senior staff but everyone senior was largelly IT clueless from what I saw. Was like a collection of my nana and grandad, everyone single finger typing and not having a clue how to work around even the smallest of problems. The younger folk got it much better, but were not allowed anywhere near the computers, they hadn't climbed the ladder from the sweeping brush yet.

Was similar with the NVQ we could get, I think I was the first to do it on my base at least, maybe one of the first in the RAF at all, and I only did it as it was a 5k pay rise. The system had been going 2-3 years and I rang the NVQ section up and they had no idea what needed to be done, they must have just been tossing it off for 2-3 years. I eventually figured it out myself. Ended up doing half the squadrons NVQ's for various favours, must have taught about 100 people how to do it directly/ indirectly. I probably cost the RAF a few million in wages

 

[BoroMart]

@Andy_W It's more the network side of things for some reason, I guess an army needs secure comms fast.

 

[MolteniArcore]

Were they Tory voters from largely red wall places, or from the North? That was my experience, 90% of the lads I met seemed to be from the North East, North West, Scotland or Wales. Don't recall many from London or South East.

Loads of them started as Labour voters too I'm sure, but as soon as they started to earn 25-30k and had loads of disposable income living on camp, then I think they seemed to think they were middle class or higher or earning enough where they thought Tories cared about them.

Absolutely far right too, and I barely noticed this at the time. I really noticed it within a year or two of leaving though.

Accents from everywhere really so not sure!

 

[sweet_left_foot]

Enlighten us all, would loved to know your chosen profession.

mental health and welfare officer for the Conservative Party?