Evening Gazette comments page on ‘the knee’

jam69 said:
Your missing the point new member its not about not agreeing with taking the knee it's about why people feel the need to boo
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No my point is each party in debates like this only sees their own points.I wouldn't boo taking the knee, nor would I berate those who choose not to wear a poppy. If others wish to castigate people for not agreeing with their stance that is up to them.Would it not be better to ask those that feel a certain way why they feel like that rather than just knee jerk criticise them. A true liberal accepts different opinions and beliefs even if they don't agree with them..I understand that this board is a form for people to express themselves, but I can see by the posts that some have entrenched views on a variety of matters. I try to keep an open mind and an informed opinion.*
*Disclaimer, if annoys me when some say Gibbo should give the club up, he's half the reason I go.⚽
 
zorro_mfc said:
Hey I totally agree but im just saying that it is a contentious issue personally I think all political gestures should be removed from sport.
Look at us we’re we wrong to Not kneel then ( yes I know we as a club did other things ) but other fans don’t know that they just see a boro side ignoring the kneel as others do it.
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100% forcing people to do it would be wrong but it’s the booing that gets me
 
Ex pfc wintergreen said:
No my point is each party in debates like this only sees their own points.I wouldn't boo taking the knee, nor would I berate those who choose not to wear a poppy. If others wish to castigate people for not agreeing with their stance that is up to them.Would it not be better to ask those that feel a certain way why they feel like that rather than just knee jerk criticise them. A true liberal accepts different opinions and beliefs even if they don't agree with them..I understand that this board is a form for people to express themselves, but I can see by the posts that some have entrenched views on a variety of matters. I try to keep an open mind and an informed opinion.*
*Disclaimer, if annoys me when some say Gibbo should give the club up, he's half the reason I go.⚽
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So the fact their issues with the knee are based on lies is irrelevant. So as long as someone believes something to be true we should accept it?

You're argument is based on both sides coming from a place of truth, the reality is the booing of the knee and what people believe it represents something sinister is based on misinformation. They are not Marxist, they are not wanting to elivate black lives above all its a gesture to show solidarity and draw awareness to a real issue. Those booing are being ignorant and bigoted simple as that.
 
BoroMart said:
I've noticed a huge amount of bigotry and right wing agendas being pushed on local facebook news groups (not just the gazette). I think both the papers and the facebook groups are infiltrated by Tory shills, on the payroll, to push misinformation. No doubt Cummings legacy.
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Bill and other on the EG site often get accused of being paid to comment the way they do. I’m not saying they do but we do minnow that Tess Valley Mayor has a huge SM budget and I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t just confined to Facebook etc
 
JonnyHistory said:
So the fact their issues with the knee are based on lies is irrelevant. So as long as someone believes something to be true we should accept it?

You're argument is based on both sides coming from a place of truth, the reality is the booing of the knee and what people believe it represents something sinister is based on misinformation. They are not Marxist, they are not wanting to elivate black lives above all its a gesture to show solidarity and draw awareness to a real issue. Those booing are being ignorant and bigoted simple as that.
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I don't believe everyone who has boo'ed has those believes so I can't accept your sweeping dismissal. In a situation were both parties believe they are right they will not give ground to the other. Not having been in a ground since February 2020 I can't give an informed opinion on why people boo, my guess would be they conflate the knee with the American BLM and the whole George Floyd situation which they may feel has nothing to do with the UK, or maybe they believe it has gone on too long. If I'm at the ground and I'm near someone booing I hope to ask them why. I don't believe it would be racial or bigoted against anyone on the pitch.
 
Ex pfc wintergreen said:
I don't believe everyone who has boo'ed has those believes so I can't accept your sweeping dismissal. In a situation were both parties believe they are right they will not give ground to the other. Not having been in a ground since February 2020 I can't give an informed opinion on why people boo, my guess would be they conflate the knee with the American BLM and the whole George Floyd situation which they may feel has nothing to do with the UK, or maybe they believe it has gone on too long. If I'm at the ground and I'm near someone booing I hope to ask them why. I don't believe it would be racial or bigoted against anyone on the pitch.
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There is no equality in arguments.

One is asking for equality and can show demonstrable evidence of the discrimination they feel.

The other is drawing false equivalencies based on lies and misinformation.

I've spoken to plenty of people against the knee. The reasons are pretty much the same.

They're marxists
All lives matter
They're corrupt

The majority of them are Tory voters and think Trump did a good job.

There are two reasons the vast majority of these people are doing this.
1 ignorance of the facts
2 bigotry
There is no rational reason why anyone would boo it other than this. Its non_violent and draws attention to a legitimate issue, it harms nobody, nobodies rioting. If we take this away, what do they have left? They get vilified for protesting on the street. The government are trying to whitewash the issue and claim racism doesn't exist and now people are trying to take away one of their last remaining platforms for this agenda.

Your argument does not hold water, loom at the 'reasons' people put in those comments. Calling free school meals Marxism, Saying all lives matter, they are telling you their reasons and they are not based in reality. It's not a sweeping generalisation to say that, its the truth. Read and listen to these people and weigh it up against the actual evidence , its hard to see how any other reason exists why they boo.
 
JonnyHistory said:
The gesture came before the movement.
Any attempt to equate it to the BLM political aims is bullocks and is just a tactic to denigrate the message. I'm not racist but... Every person who booed is saying that imo
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I can't agree with that when players had black lives matter on the back of their shirts, Arsenal have that all over their ground. My issue isn't with BLM I haven't done any research. I am simply saying that the link gives some racists an excuse too boo and some people may genuinely disagree with the movements Aims.
 
Laughing said:
I can't agree with that when players had black lives matter on the back of their shirts, Arsenal have that all over their ground. My issue isn't with BLM I haven't done any research. I am simply saying that the link gives some racists an excuse too boo and some people may genuinely disagree with the movements Aims.
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The gesture and the aim are not mutually inclusive , the gesture predates the movement. By equating one to the other and using that as an excuse to boo is a disingenuous act of bigotry or ignorance. There is no grey area, people have either believed a lie or are using it as a veil for their bigotry.
 
JonnyHistory said:
There is no equality in arguments.

One is asking for equality and can show demonstrable evidence of the discrimination they feel.

The other is drawing false equivalencies based on lies and misinformation.

I've spoken to plenty of people against the knee. The reasons are pretty much the same.

They're marxists
All lives matter
They're corrupt

The majority of them are Tory voters and think Trump did a good job.

There are two reasons the vast majority of these people are doing this.
1 ignorance of the facts
2 bigotry
There is no rational reason why anyone would boo it other than this. Its non_violent and draws attention to a legitimate issue, it harms nobody, nobodies rioting. If we take this away, what do they have left? They get vilified for protesting on the street. The government are trying to whitewash the issue and claim racism doesn't exist and now people are trying to take away one of their last remaining platforms for this agenda.

Your argument does not hold water, loom at the 'reasons' people put in those comments. Calling free school meals Marxism, Saying all lives matter, they are telling you their reasons and they are not based in reality. It's not a sweeping generalisation to say that, its the truth. Read and listen to these people and weigh it up against the actual evidence , its hard to see how any other reason exists why they boo.
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It's not my "argument" because I don't have one, I was debating how people have entrenched views to the point where they won't listen to another's point of view let alone give ground, and reading your posts I feel you are like that. I think most people would agree with equality,but some of those may boo the knee taking, they can still have disagreements about how it should be reached ,its possible to hold two different opinions on the same subject depending on the circumstances . I come from a background of poverty and received free school meals, if I had my way they would be free now, others may disagree depending on the circumstances, that's fine it wouldn't mean we didn't have common ground on other subjects or that they were a bad person.
 
JonnyHistory said:
The gesture came before the movement.
Any attempt to equate it to the BLM political aims is bullocks and is just a tactic to denigrate the message. I'm not racist but... Every person who booed is saying that imo
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But this is what they did do last year when it started, and they've not been able to disconnect that kneeling gesture from the BLM movement. They literally had the power fist logo on the sleeve and 'black lives matter' written on the back and so the kneeling is attached to that. The chief executive of the PL made the decision to drop the BLM transfers on the shirt last September because of the questions being raised about the policies associate with BLM. Perhaps this was the moment for the PL, Kick It Out and the players to think of something else going forward to convey their anti-racist position.
 
Ex pfc wintergreen said:
It's not my "argument" because I don't have one, I was debating how people have entrenched views to the point where they won't listen to another's point of view let alone give ground, and reading your posts I feel you are like that. I think most people would agree with equality,but some of those may boo the knee taking, they can still have disagreements about how it should be reached ,its possible to hold two different opinions on the same subject depending on the circumstances . I come from a background of poverty and received free school meals, if I had my way they would be free now, others may disagree depending on the circumstances, that's fine it wouldn't mean we didn't have common ground on other subjects or that they were a bad person.
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I have far from entrenched views and aliences, I am from cannon park, my mum never worked, no dad around, I have went and educated myself and experienced life.
I worked in the city for 6 years as a researcher for a private equity company, I've owned my own business and now I teach. I've voted for three parties in my life and pride myself on my critical thinking and ability to be open to any ideas or cultures.

The reasons they boo are not based on reality, they are either ignorant to the facts or they are bigots.

Taking a knee the whole gesture is not property of BLM it actually predates the movement. The effort to paint them both as the same entity is disingenuous at best and flat out racism at its worst.

Evidence is evidence, look at how the knee gesture has evolved over time (its not new) look at how certain parts of the press have reported falsely on the BLM movement and does not match the real evidence.

I am currently working on my post grad in history, social history is my area of interest and as with all my work any comments or opinions I have must be backed up with evidence. Ask anyone who booed the knee to show evidence that BLM are Marxist or denigrating white lives and you will get nothing but rhetoric and sophism in return.
 
So despite the players stating that they are not kneeling in support of any political movement and purely to show solidarity to each other and the society they live in and stand up against racism people still want to equate it to a m
MFP said:
But this is what they did do last year when it started, and they've not been able to disconnect that kneeling gesture from the BLM movement. They literally had the power fist logo on the sleeve and 'black lives matter' written on the back and so the kneeling is attached to that. The chief executive of the PL made the decision to drop the BLM transfers on the shirt last September because of the questions being raised about the policies associate with BLM. Perhaps this was the moment for the PL, Kick It Out and the players to think of something else going forward to convey their anti-racist position.
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What policies are you talking about?

Everyone talks about BLMs political aims, can you enlighten me to which ones that are most inflammatory?
 
MFP said:
But this is what they did do last year when it started, and they've not been able to disconnect that kneeling gesture from the BLM movement. They literally had the power fist logo on the sleeve and 'black lives matter' written on the back and so the kneeling is attached to that. The chief executive of the PL made the decision to drop the BLM transfers on the shirt last September because of the questions being raised about the policies associate with BLM. Perhaps this was the moment for the PL, Kick It Out and the players to think of something else going forward to convey their anti-racist positionthe right
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I would argue the right are the ones forcing the equivalency. By associating one to the other they denigrate the message and allow this type of bile and ignorance to exist.
 
JonnyHistory said:
The gesture and the aim are not mutually inclusive , the gesture predates the movement. By equating one to the other and using that as an excuse to boo is a disingenuous act of bigotry or ignorance. There is no grey area, people have either believed a lie or are using it as a veil for their bigotry.
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Which does ignore BLM players on players shirts. To be clear I am not excusing the booing, I am saying perhaps another gesture kneeling down perhaps.
 
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