Does anybody get the Southgate criticism…

[atypical_boro]

Italy, like Germany, are a fellow G7 nation with a relatively strong economy. Football, as in in Germany, is just as popular there as it is in England. Italy is also the same size as England. We should never ever expect to 'cruise' past Italy, Germany or France (or Spain for that matter), and when we do beat them (as we did last week), we should always be satisfied with the result.

 

[BoroMart]

The Wembley final v Italy was a classic case in point, one nil up at Wembley we should have cruised past Italy who were in shock but once again we failed to roll the dice and take the game to Italy we sat back and Italy capitalised on it snd grrw in confidence as a result.

My problem with that view is that assumes that making a sub will always create a positive impact when often it can make a negative one.

There's a lot to be said for trusting your players on the pitch, it's a philosophy Carrick shares.

Nobody was going to breaze past that Italy team, they'd gone 3 years unbeaten, They had romped their way to the semis, in style, shown resiliance against Spain when needed to get through to the final and were stacked with experienced players.

We have to look at all the facts, not just some to get a proper rounded view of that time. Yes we had good players, but most of our top attacking talents were very inexperienced, Saka, Foden, Grealish etc, how many finals had they played between them? Add in Philips and Declan Rice with just 12 england caps and 120 premier league appearances between them. It was an evolving team.

I think if Spain had got through, another evolving team, we would have beaten them, due to better quality players. In the end the experience of the Italian team in key positions proved enough to solve the problems and nullify the game.

This squad has been evolving year on year, and improving. If you look at that World cup in 2018 had Lingard Ali and Young starting and Danny Rose, Dier and Vardy coming off the bench. It also was pretty inexperienced in Maguire, Stones, Trippier.

V2.0 was the one that drew with Italy, but as discussed had a moderately experienced defence but lacked it everywhere else.

V3.0 in the world cup has introduced players like Foden, Grealish, Saka and Rice as moderately experienced starters. We didn't convert our good play into the win, for various reasons, but none of them in the control of the manager. He put a formation and tactics on the field that could maybe should have won.

The progression is there, V4.0 could be the one to lift a trophy.

 

[BoroMart]

It’s about utilising all our options though grealish in 99 th minute what can he really do in such a short time.

not sure he was capable of doing more than a 20 minute stint, he got injured prior to the competition with a bad shin injury and managed his way through it. Maybe Southgate turned to him late, maybe he wasn't fit enough to do longer. Only a couple of people know.

 

[Greaseman]

Typical English sense of entitlement.

Behave yourself

 

[HarryVegas]

As said several times already, it's culture wars stuff. They hate him because he's intelligent, reasoned, reasonable, measured - and teaches his players about respect and tolerance. In short, he represents everything the rabid, right-arms-in-the-air mob hate - woke.

 

[Jedi boro]

not sure he was capable of doing more than a 20 minute stint, he got injured prior to the competition with a bad shin injury and managed his way through it. Maybe Southgate turned to him late, maybe he wasn't fit enough to do longer. Only a couple of people know.

Maybe and I hope he’s learned from
Previous games but I’m concerned at how he is handling Phil foden.

It’s clear his mf three are rice Phillips and poss Bellingham or maybe mount.

 

[atypical_boro]

Maybe and I hope he’s learned from
Previous games but I’m concerned at how he is handling Phil foden.

It’s clear his mf three are rice Phillips and poss Bellingham or maybe mount.

Foden’s form for England has never been so good that he’s undroppable. Pep drops him from City’s lineup semi-regularly.

And no i’m not saying he’s crap, he’s very very good, but I’d like Southgate to pick players to fit the system rather than shoehorn the “best players” in. As I say, Foden’s form is a bit up and down for England, like many before him.

 

[BoroMart]

Maybe and I hope he’s learned from
Previous games but I’m concerned at how he is handling Phil foden.

It’s clear his mf three are rice Phillips and poss Bellingham or maybe mount.

Foden a weird one, total talent but floats around games without ever dominating it. Has spells in and out of city as well as England. Probably would have played more but for a few niggles and obv missed out on Sunday wi th an appendix op. Not sure it’s Southgate treating him badly, more circumstance and maybe Phil not always applying himself for the full 90.

He clearly has the ability to be a proper generational talent, if he wants it enough

 

[Ex Footy Legs]

I had TalkSport on the other night after we beat Italy.

You’d think it was the Euros Final all over again the amount of people ringing up to moan about Southgate. Presenters were just as bad as well.

I think the issue is we were rubbish 2nd half, we need to be able to name it when you go from brilliant to rubbish as such a different performance wasn’t explained by Southgate in the way that Carrick could/would….
That’s part of the issue with Southgate, his interviews aren’t great in terms of relating to him. His way of explaining the difference in performance leaves him exposed to criticism and really that’s fair.
Once again, for me, grealish took off when him and Bellingham are the only players who can retain possession and yet Southgate doesn’t trust grealish. Difference between him and Carrick.

 

[Diego]

Think Maddison impressed on Sunday, might of put him ahead of Foden in the pecking order. Linked well with Chilwell and rotated with Bellingham

 

[Ex Footy Legs]

Think Maddison impressed on Sunday, might of put him ahead of Foden in the pecking order. Linked well with Chilwell and rotated with Bellingham

True but Bellingham and grealish are just first names on the teamsheet for me because they win games for you with their creativity and ability on the ball and the fact that Southgate essentially won’t play grealish when everyone is fit will be his downfall. They offer something different than anyone else we have, rashford, foden, Maddison etc etc etc….we won’t win anything keeping grealish on the bench….Believe me

 

[BoroMart]

True but Bellingham and grealish are just first names on the teamsheet for me because they win games for you with their creativity and ability on the ball and the fact that Southgate essentially won’t play grealish when everyone is fit will be his downfall. They offer something different than anyone else we have, rashford, foden, Maddison etc etc etc….we won’t win anything keeping grealish on the bench….Believe me

Bellingham yes, Grealish no, doesn’t score enough for a player in his role. That in turn puts much more pressure on Kane to come up with the goods.

 

[BoroMart]

Just checked Grealish stats 2 goals and 3 assists in 25 games for England.

For free scoring Man City 67 games, just 7 goals and 9 assists.

Needs more end product.

 

[wilkos_perm]

Bellingham yes, Grealish no, doesn’t score enough for a player in his role. That in turn puts much more pressure on Kane to come up with the goods.

I'd agree, Grealish is less creative in terms of output for me that the likes of Saka, Rashford and Foden. He'd be behind those three for me (I realise Saka primarily plays on the other side). I can see that at times he may retain posession more, but he certainly didn't do that the other night, he was caught flat footed a few times when the ball was going into him and misplaced a few passes.

 

[BoroMart]

I'd agree, Grealish is less creative in terms of output for me that the likes of Saka, Rashford and Foden. He'd be behind those three for me (I realise Saka primarily plays on the other side). I can see that at times he may retain posession more, but he certainly didn't do that the other night, he was caught flat footed a few times when the ball was going into him and misplaced a few passes.

agreed, all 3 of those players have a greater goal threat / creativity. It's really tough to know who to leave out of those 3. In an ideal world you play them all behind Kane and put Bellingham alongside Rice, but then that takes a bit of freedom away from Bellingham, but, it could be the answer should we manage to ever get all those players fit at the same time. Foden has played most of his career wide, but I think playing as a 10, with that David Platt arriving late in the box thing could be his ideal role.

 

[Diego]

True but Bellingham and grealish are just first names on the teamsheet for me because they win games for you with their creativity and ability on the ball and the fact that Southgate essentially won’t play grealish when everyone is fit will be his downfall. They offer something different than anyone else we have, rashford, foden, Maddison etc etc etc….we won’t win anything keeping grealish on the bench….Believe me

Grealish is decent I agree but he’s not ahead of Rashford in pecking order. I like Maddison think he’s very clever and looks suited to international football. I like Grealish as an impact sub

 

[Marvanelli]

View attachment 55316

Classic example Italy made 5 subs used all their options and got the goal. Whereas we only made 3 subs in a final at Wembley one of which was rice for Henderson ( so like for like)


View attachment 55317

Bellingham was an unused sub and grealish came on in 99 th minute

Can't help but agree with this though.

We played an Italy in the final that were very lucky to get past Spain in the semi's.

The same Italy that failed, yes failed, to qualify for back to back World Cups.

Back to back World cups FFS.

This was a poor Italian team. Any Italian team failing to qualify for back to back World Cups is poor. I don't buy the 'unbeaten' record as it was largely made up of terrible opponents.

I do think Southgate sometimes gets unfair criticism though.

I hope he's learned from his lack/poor in game management as that's one of the biggest flaws in his managerial game.

Would I sack Southgate? Definitely not.

Do I trust him to bring home the bacon? Not really.

I do however think we have one of the best young squads on paper (certainly from an attacking POV) in the world and I think we would give any team in the world a game.

 

[Quicksilvera]

As said several times already, it's culture wars stuff. They hate him because he's intelligent, reasoned, reasonable, measured - and teaches his players about respect and tolerance. In short, he represents everything the rabid, right-arms-in-the-air mob hate - woke.

There is also a racial element to it as well, they see him supporting taking the knee which the rabid foamed mouth bigots despise.

 

[BoroMart]

The same Italy that failed, yes failed, to qualify for back to back World Cups.

Back to back World cups FFS.

you have to look at the whole, not just certain elements. In the 2018 qualifiers they were paired in a group with Spain and came second. They lost just 1 qualifying match, to Spain. But it wasn't enough. Usually W7 D2 L1 would be enough to top the group, but not this time.

Play offs they lost to sweden, a decent team, 1-0 away and then drew 0-0 at home. Sweden are a side that you don't want to have to break down, they're organised, and effective defensively. A worldie double save, a clearance of the line, a blatant penalty not given, and the woodwork all stopped Italy getting the goal they needed. They battered Sweden in the second leg and were unfortunate to draw 0-0. That doesn't make them a poor team.

In 2022 qualifying, again this supposed terrible team were not that bad. They were unbeaten in their qualifying group, but not taking their chances and a couple of sloppy goals cost them points and they ended up with 4 wins and 4 draws. They only conceded 2 goals though. They went into a 1 legged play off against North Macedonia. Once again they absolutely dominated and battered their opposition, 32 shots, but only 6 on target. Macedonia 4 shots 2 on target and snatched it with a 92nd minute winner.

When you look at the complete campaigns they were not a poor side, not up to Italy of old standard, maybe, but still a world class defensive side, world class ball retention, just lacking a killer instinct at the top end cost them.

Lets stop this nonsense that Italy are a second rate team, they are not.

 

[Marvanelli]

you have to look at the whole, not just certain elements. In the 2018 qualifiers they were paired in a group with Spain and came second. They lost just 1 qualifying match, to Spain. But it wasn't enough. Usually W7 D2 L1 would be enough to top the group, but not this time.

Play offs they lost to sweden, a decent team, 1-0 away and then drew 0-0 at home. Sweden are a side that you don't want to have to break down, they're organised, and effective defensively. A worldie double save, a clearance of the line, a blatant penalty not given, and the woodwork all stopped Italy getting the goal they needed. They battered Sweden in the second leg and were unfortunate to draw 0-0. That doesn't make them a poor team.

In 2022 qualifying, again this supposed terrible team were not that bad. They were unbeaten in their qualifying group, but not taking their chances and a couple of sloppy goals cost them points and they ended up with 4 wins and 4 draws. They only conceded 2 goals though. They went into a 1 legged play off against North Macedonia. Once again they absolutely dominated and battered their opposition, 32 shots, but only 6 on target. Macedonia 4 shots 2 on target and snatched it with a 92nd minute winner.

When you look at the complete campaigns they were not a poor side, not up to Italy of old standard, maybe, but still a world class defensive side, world class ball retention, just lacking a killer instinct at the top end cost them.

Lets stop nonsense that Italy are a second rate team, they are not.

Sorry, but I just don't agree with a lot.

Sweden aren't a great team. If we were faced with a KO game, I'd be very very unhappy if we didn't manage to beat them, certainly over 2 legs. 2 legged affairs definitely favour the better team, and Italy failed to beat Sweden.

Also, the next qualifying campaign, they didn't even make it to the final play offs. North Macedonia are yet another average footballing nation (I'm being polite labelling them as average). Put it this way, the bookies even had Italy as 1/6 favourites to beat North Macedonia.

The Italy team of the past 5-6 years has been very poor (for their high standards).

A stronger manager in that final, would've smelt blood after that first 45 minutes. They were there for the taking in that first half and both we and Italy knew it.

The subs made were dreadful. They were far too late to change the game.

Again, last week showed how poor Italy really are. They do a lot of huffing and puffing without actually hurting opposition.