Democracy

Ok, you win, you prefer a system that allows LePen, the German Right. The Italian system of no government, the Belgium system of the third party winning, Sinn Fien.

Me I prefer a system that told the Far Right to FO
 
As I said above, you’re basically an idiot.
So FPTP doesn't give you personally the result that you want, so you decide it isn't democratic and declare anyone who disagrees with you to be an idiot. How is that either democratic or equitable?

FPTP is popular here because it's easy to understand and produces decisive results. The only people who ever want to change it are the minorities disadvantaged by it. As soon as the minorities become majorities then they don't want to change it any more
 
So FPTP doesn't give you personally the result that you want, so you decide it isn't democratic and declare anyone who disagrees with you to be an idiot. How is that either democratic or equitable?

FPTP is popular here because it's easy to understand and produces decisive results. The only people who ever want to change it are the minorities disadvantaged by it. As soon as the minorities become majorities then they don't want to change it any more
No modern democracy has FPTP. Are you saying the UK electorate are half wits and need a simple system they can understand? That's harsh on the majority who are disadvantaged by it.
 
So FPTP doesn't give you personally the result that you want, so you decide it isn't democratic and declare anyone who disagrees with you to be an idiot. How is that either democratic or equitable?

FPTP is popular here because it's easy to understand and produces decisive results. The only people who ever want to change it are the minorities disadvantaged by it. As soon as the minorities become majorities then they don't want to change it any more

No that’s precisely not what I’m saying. Think again. There are loads of versions of PR but let’s keep it simple: I want a system that more closely reflects the votes of those people voting as opposed to your ‘simple’ system in which a party with 40% of the vote can get a huge, unassailable and unchallengeable majority that allows them to literally do what they want. This isn’t difficult stuff.

Edit: And I only call people an idiot when they say idiotic things. Championing FPTP on the basis that it avoids right wing governments & then somehow equating a push for PR as an endorsement of far right parties is, frankly, idiotic.
 
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Go on give me one example of PR that gives me a government that anyone voted for.

Explain how Belgium took 18 months after its election then had a government that was no one's choice.

Or how LePen can be kept out.

In the end you prefer Yellow paint.
 
Go on give me one example of PR that gives me a government that anyone voted for.

Explain how Belgium took 18 months after its election then had a government that was no one's choice.

Or how LePen can be kept out.

In the end you prefer Yellow paint.
How about the many functioning PR systems around Europe?

For Le Pen I raise you the Johnson led rabble that are more corrupt than anything in France.
 
Pointless engaging with him. He’s shown himself up to be a bit of a clown.
Apart from you will not answer my point. PR has proved to be even less effective than FPTP. Ireland has a government with terrorists, Italy changes its government monthly, Israel is now run by a left wing leader for 6 months then a right wing fanatic , Belgium's government took 18 months to be decided upon after the election, then a government no one wanted. I give facts your response is insults.
 
Apart from you will not answer my point. PR has proved to be even less effective than FPTP. Ireland has a government with terrorists, Italy changes its government monthly, Israel is now run by a left wing leader for 6 months then a right wing fanatic , Belgium's government took 18 months to be decided upon after the election, then a government no one wanted. I give facts your response is insults.

You don’t have a point. Nothing you’ve said is remotely reflected in reality. They aren’t facts.

You cite Italy but it’s the exception rather than the rule. PR coalition government are usually quite stable. Studies have clearly shown there is no evidence of persistent instability. The record of PR across European countries over many decades shows only a few instances (Italy being one of them) where instability has been a serious problem. The vast majority of PR countries have had stable and efficient governments. And the system you are arguing for is too stable. It has led to a government that can’t be challenged, that has all the power. On 40% of the vote. A nonsense.

You talk about extremists getting too much power in a PR system. More nonsense. You even made the ridiculous point that PR brought the Nazis to power demonstrating a complete misunderstanding of history. The Nazis came to power for a complex combination of reasons: economic depression, the association of the WR with Germany losing World War I. It was a perfect storm that brought Nazis to power which would have happened irrespective of what voting system was in place. Loads of other European countries during the time were also using PR voting systems and they did not get fascist governments.

It is a huge exaggeration that PR produces extremist governments or a significant proportion of extremist elected members. It’s just not borne out by the evidence. Most European countries have had PR for the last 50 years and there just hasn’t been any material number of extremist elected party representatives. There is also plenty of evidence that electing a small number of extreme members has a positive effect. It moderates and co-ops those extreme elements.

No political system can ever be perfect. But to argue that a system that isn’t used in any modern, forward thinking democracy, and which provides one party absolute, unfettered power on 40% of the vote can’t be improved upon is ridiculous. I mean jaw droppingly daft.

This is an answer you really didn’t deserve given the ridiculous nature of your responses but honestly, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. There is so much evidence of PR working yet you focus on the very small number of immaterial ‘problems’ and then chose to interpret my posts as evidence that I was in favour of a fascist government. As I said above that is absolutely idiotic.
 
You really don’t have a clue. We stand almost alone in Europe in using the archaic and grossly unfair FPTP system. Belarus, a country which essentially has a dictatorship and France, a country using still a much more representative version of FPTP, are the only other countries that don’t have PR in one form or another.

We have a system in which a party can get 40% of the vote and somehow end up with an 80 seat majority giving them absolute power and control. Only a moron would think that is a good, democratic system.
Idiotic
Nonsense
Ridiculous
Daft
You don't have a clue


Someone disagreed with Adi by any chance 😂
He simply can't acknowledge anybody's opinion that differs from his own !
You missed clown and cretins. Everyone is entitled to an opinion , seems this fella doesn’t understand that.
 
Fact trumps opinion though, that’s the problem some of the posters on this thread have.

PR is unquestionably a fairer and more representative electoral system than FPTP under pretty much any measure. To try and argue that Le Pen is proof to the contrary doesn’t understand the argument.
 
Apart from you will not answer my point. PR has proved to be even less effective than FPTP. Ireland has a government with terrorists, Italy changes its government monthly, Israel is now run by a left wing leader for 6 months then a right wing fanatic , Belgium's government took 18 months to be decided upon after the election, then a government no one wanted. I give facts your response is insults.
If you think ireland has a government run by terrorists then you must be livid that FPTP has only ever given NI a government run by terrorists?
 
You missed clown and cretins. Everyone is entitled to an opinion , seems this fella doesn’t understand that.

Everyone is indeed entitled to an opinion. Something with which I don’t have a problem. Two things though. When someone considers their opinion to be equal of someone else’s facts then I will call it out. Secondly, when someone says something plainly idiotic (eg supporting PR is the equivalent of supporting fascism) then I will call that idiotic.

What tends to then happen is that the person on the receiving end starts to get precious about having their idiocy called out because they have run out of any legitimate arguments and been shown up.

So that’s the reality. I have always engaged with reasonable opinions expressed well and courteously. But I have no patience for stupidity of the nature demonstrated on this thread. Why would I?
 
Everyone is indeed entitled to an opinion. Something with which I don’t have a problem. Two things though. When someone considers their opinion to be equal of someone else’s facts then I will call it out. Secondly, when someone says something plainly idiotic (eg supporting PR is the equivalent of supporting fascism) then I will call that idiotic.

What tends to then happen is that the person on the receiving end starts to get precious about having their idiocy called out because they have run out of any legitimate arguments and been shown up.

So that’s the reality. I have always engaged with reasonable opinions expressed well and courteously. But I have no patience for stupidity of the nature demonstrated on this thread. Why would I?
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, you have strong opinions and people may well respect that however what you also do is confuse your opinion for fact and then start the name calling if anyone dares to question that.

In response to your “why would I?” Try it in real life and see how far it gets you.
 
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, you have strong opinions and people may well respect that however what you also do is confuse your opinion for fact and then start the name calling if anyone dares to question that.

In response to your “why would I?” Try it in real life and see how far it gets you.
Where has he confused opinion for fact though?
 
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