1finny
Well-known member
Not sure about that - they are failing because they aren‘t relevant. The high street costs are a bit of a side show.
Debenhams look likely to go under with 14000 jobs at risk
- Thread starter ThatFragranceGuy
- Start date
Not sure about that - they are failing because they aren‘t relevant. The high street costs are a bit of a side show.
r00fie1
Well-known member
No.
Amazon dont pay Council Tax, Rents and Leaseholds for each individual site.
"Costs" in any business are never a "side show".
High Street stores start from behind the line.
They also have staff costs.
Sports Direct [for example] have massive economies of scale:
At Shirebrook, the huge Warehouse / Distribution Centre [Next M1] employs 500 regular staff and up to 3500 part time and temporary [agency] staff.
The centre covers 90,000 square meters, or the equivalent of 13 professional football pitches.
How does any High street retailer compete with that?
Just look at the size of those articulated trailers compared to the main warehouse under construction.
Jostler
Well-known member
On the flip and more positive side. The Covid : WFH culture has been reported to actually help local high streets. For those thy live in small towns, where many residents would have commuted elsewhere, they are seeing an uptick in sales due to people nipping our local on lunch breaks etc instead of buying £10 prey lunches in the bigger cities if they had commuted
ThatFragranceGuy
Well-known member
They do pay council tax in the form of rates, there was a case recently where they won a rebate because the council tried to changes them each floors full rate space despite the fact they were mezzanine floors.
no high street can compete with amazon just like corner shops can’t compete with Tesco, and we don’t have to force them to do so in order to sustain an outdated business model surely? Look at Netflix to blockbuster or digital cameras to Kodak. These businesses have had ample time to adapt and survive and instead of grasping the changes they’ve expanded aggressively and only realised it’s too late when it already is. Times have moved on now. Retail will still exist but high streets will decline except for food, services and smaller retail spaces. Larger retail will form out of town retail parks. Councils need to incorporate quality housing in the town centres instead of building in busy estates, the infrastructure is already there and it will benefit existing businesses.
This is a perfect storm not at all of amazons own making, but companies failing to adapt with changing markets and consumer behaviour and governments squeezing businesses with extortionate business rates.
many of the failing firms just aren’t relevant - and the brands they offer of the services they offer just aren’t in line with what consumers want or they’re in overcrowded markets.
Budget stores and discounters have proven you can offer brand names for less as well, which has captured a lot of sales.
r00fie1
Well-known member
I concur with some of that, but if you domesticate town centres where they become home to students and ewxclusive apartmnents - you must accept terminal decline for the shopper and a move to the huge out of town - hard to reach, malls, with all their inherent problems.
I suggest that every online retailer pays an equivalent rate of tax on each item equivalent to the costs of the high street retailer.
Its not a level playing field and its unfair to independents.
Its not attractive to turn town centres into dormitories - only if you are a property developer.
I imagine the large remaining Department Stores in town could be turned into "apartments" [Flats]
We need better public transport and a total rethink if we are going to bring people onto the high streets.
Not easy.
ThatFragranceGuy
Well-known member
But we didn’t do that to supermarkets, who came along and decimated fishmongers, butchers, greengrocers etc which were in abundance. They could never compete with economies of scale and warehouses and national supply chains, but we don’t charge them supermarket tax to keep a dying industry going.
We don’t charge Netflix a fee per movie streamed to keep blockbuster in business. We didn’t charge people per digital photo taken to keep film developing kiosks in business. Mail order firms existed long before the internet and we didn’t charge them an extra tax to keep them competitive with the high street.
It seems a totally bizarre idea to me to charge a tax to an online retailer to make it as expensive as a physical store when they don’t own or benefit from a physical store, it’s trying to cling onto something that doesn’t exist anymore.
It would also stifle business growth because you couldn’t easily set up an online business without paying this strange prohibitively expensive tax based purely on an outdated business model which you’re not even participating in?
swordtrombonefish
Well-known member
I can see where you are coming from Roofie, but the whole landscape has changed and will not return to a bricks and mortar high street. The idea that new online business should be penalised because the high street model demands it is way out of date. It would be akin to suggesting that a new business that employs only 'work from home' staff should pay a tax to support businesses that have global or national office network.
It is unfortunate, because I did like town centres for the high street's social and communal experience, but at least some of that has been overtaken by social media, and the rest by out of town shopping - not just the online shopping opportunity.
Adapt or die seems to be the watchword - and the high street in its present form will not survive.
It is unfortunate, because I did like town centres for the high street's social and communal experience, but at least some of that has been overtaken by social media, and the rest by out of town shopping - not just the online shopping opportunity.
Adapt or die seems to be the watchword - and the high street in its present form will not survive.
1finny
Well-known member
Roofie
It is the people who are speaking
Its not just price - you can get a full wardrobe for about a tenner in the nigh street at Primark. They are making it work with the same cost constraints HOF, Debs etc.
Other retailers make it work too.
Businesses usually fail because of poor leadership but blame ‘the market’ or high costs.
BoroMart
Well-known member
well as the trend to the death of the high street continues, you will have to do a day trip to Manchester, Birmingham or London for that experience, the provincial town high street has shrunk year on year.
ticker_tape
Well-known member
Hopefully not.
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r00fie1
Well-known member
Not sure the point you are trying to make.
The decline of the High street has been increasing over many years.
Cheaper lower end retailers will always have a place in the market, but you cant deny the pull of the out of town malls and ionline have accelerated the process.
r00fie1
Well-known member
What do you propose to ensure the viability of the high street?
ticker_tape
Well-known member
Out of town wont be the cheape option, private landlords own most of the town centres look at INTU,councils will buy back and get grants for regeneration. These big multi nationals with high fit out costs and re-vite cost like Next prime location keeps their name but is it cost effective in the future or the now even?
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ticker_tape
Well-known member
apologies Im typing with a remote handset. It wont backspace nor return.
1finny
Well-known member
The point I’m making is people blame the ‘cost’ of operating on the ‘high st’ for its demise.
Customers have chosen to move away from that kind of environment. The costs of being in Trafford Centre for a retailer are significant - yet they can/could afford it. They went there because that’s where customers would come for an experience.
The ‘high st’ is an anachronism and exists in name only - it is a street with some shops on, in the main.
Why all the fuss to ‘save the high st’? It will develop into something viable or fall into ruin.
Not nice to look at but neither are some parts of pallister park and no one gives a firk.
r00fie1
Well-known member
Not sure youve understood: "customers" have been encouraged away since the 60s with the advent of increased car ownership and building huge out of town "shopping centres". "Cost" is the essential factor in maintaining jobs and sighting retail outlets.
The biggest single factor in changing retail has been the advent of easy access to online shopping.
Making the comparison with what looks nice and deprived houseing estates is irrelevant. We will leave it there. We disagree.
boromike85
Well-known member
I don't think full-time working from home will be here to stay @ticker_tape. I can see it being hybrid, smaller offices with part-time wfh and part-time being office based. It is very different having an established team with established relationships working from home temporarily but over time people will move jobs and those relationships disappear. It is much more difficult to have any sort of working relationship with a team/co-worker if you've never met them. It is the social part of a team that is missing, asking quick questions to someone sat near by instead of a more formal call etc. There are people in my office of 20 that I haven't spoken to for 6 months because I haven't needed them professionally whereas in the office I'd speak to them a couple of times a week either socially or we hear each other talking about something we know the answer to and can jump in and help etc. Not so bad if I want to give them a ring to discuss because I know them but a new starter wouldn't have the same established relationship.
ThatFragranceGuy
Well-known member
I don’t - it stands in its own two feet or it doesn’t. Where do you draw the line and how do you differentiate? If I want to start a business, who decides if I pay this weird tax or if there is even a high street equivalent?
Or do you just want all online businesses to have massive business rate bills disguised as online tax as a matter of course?
if someone starts a small FB business baking from home, they suddenly need to pay a huge tax to balance the cost playing field with Greggs, who benefit from brand recognition and public locations, so they’re paying for something they aren’t getting? What will happen is less startups, not more shops in the high street. No one will want to take those financial risks and Britain falls behind against international firms that have no such tax therefore making these businesses difficult to compete
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Wiseman_Vaughn
Well-known member
I've been to Teesside park a few times when I've been back on Teesside and it always seems really busy - I made the mistake of going into Stockton a few years ago - my God, what a depressing experience that was. I remember as a kid, Stockton was always buzzing and had decent shops, as well as the market. Although I can't remember what it was like before the Castlegate Centre, I would imagine that if the original buildings were still there it would have been a bigger version of Yarm.
boromike85
Well-known member
Having a High Street shop doesn't make sense, even if the internet wasn't an issue. Stockton, Middlesbrough & Teesside Park is a situation that is replicated 100s of times throughout the country. A business can either have a shop in Stockton & a shop in Middlesbrough or 1 shop for both populations at Teesside Park. Even if costs were identical, it still makes more sense to have one at a retail park than 2 in town centres.
Town centres were useful when everyone didn't have cars and they were basically transport hubs but these days the small amount that don't have cars aren't enough to make up for the additional costs of running two stores. There are a few town/city centres that act like a retail park in drawing customers from multiple populations or where the local population is big enough for multiple stores where it makes sense to maintain a presence like London, Manchester, Newcastle etc.
Town centres are an outdated concept. We all have more flexibility in how we travel. What we actually need is better travel infrastructure so people can get to/from places without having to go through the town centre. The bicycle wheel hub and spoke transport system needs to change.
Town centres were useful when everyone didn't have cars and they were basically transport hubs but these days the small amount that don't have cars aren't enough to make up for the additional costs of running two stores. There are a few town/city centres that act like a retail park in drawing customers from multiple populations or where the local population is big enough for multiple stores where it makes sense to maintain a presence like London, Manchester, Newcastle etc.
Town centres are an outdated concept. We all have more flexibility in how we travel. What we actually need is better travel infrastructure so people can get to/from places without having to go through the town centre. The bicycle wheel hub and spoke transport system needs to change.