Cheating a question?

SmallTown

Well-known member
Diving is tricky... because if no contact has been made then yeah its blatant cheating ... BUT if the player has felt some form of contact, then i'm all for the attacking player to "make the most of it"
I think I disagree with this. It's a contact sport. It's really undignified to see a player reacting as if he's been struck with a hammer for the slightest touch. It has completely put me off the sport
 

Pak_Doo_Ik

Well-known member
Thing is, cheating has always been part of the game. Every foul breaks the rules, and players have always tried to see how much they can get away with; attempts to kick opponents out of the game and physically intimidate opposition players have been there for years.

Is that really different to what we see now, or was it somehow a "more honest form of cheating?"

I think fans must share in the blame though; when I started going to football, a red card would be followed by the player being booed off by his own fans. Now he's applauded off. Fans don't really care what he's done; if the player is wearing the right coloured shirt, we back them whatever they've done wrong.
I think a certain David Beckham might disagree with this 😉
 

SmallTown

Well-known member
Interesting how other sports deal with cheating. There are so many regulations in motorsports for example that you have to try and bend them.

One American team owner said if you say you're not cheating in motorsports you're either lying or stupid.

Even the governing bodies have a respect for it. When Toyotas rally team were caught cheating with an air intake restrictor even the people who caught them said it was genius.
 

Pak_Doo_Ik

Well-known member
I don't see your point.
I recall him being booed by fans of his club's opposition, not by England fans or Man U fans.
I think the headlines in the papers the following day were aimed at Beckham the England player, not Beckham thean Utd player.
 

LowMoorBoro

Active member
I do wonder sometimes if players dive in training, I know it won’t be anywhere near as high contact as an actual game but interested if they still just go down all the time.
 

Trug

Well-known member
I do wonder sometimes if players dive in training, I know it won’t be anywhere near as high contact as an actual game but interested if they still just go down all the time.
I believe they actually practice diving at some clubs
 

Trug

Well-known member
Thing is, cheating has always been part of the game. Every foul breaks the rules, and players have always tried to see how much they can get away with; attempts to kick opponents out of the game and physically intimidate opposition players have been there for years.

Is that really different to what we see now, or was it somehow a "more honest form of cheating?"

I think fans must share in the blame though; when I started going to football, a red card would be followed by the player being booed off by his own fans. Now he's applauded off. Fans don't really care what he's done; if the player is wearing the right coloured shirt, we back them whatever they've done wrong.
I disagree with that Frozen Horse. Cheating has definately been with us for years but players kicking lumps out of each other, pulling shirts, taking free kicks and throw ins from anywhere but where the infringement occurred, holding players; these were all punished by the referee according to the laws of the game. These days much of that is ignored.
When I started going to games players sent off would be headline news, Even players getting booked had straplines.
Now we have people like shearer saying "he was entitled to go down" at the slightest hint of a tackle. Shearer was in my opinion one of the biggest cheats in football for the way he always had his arms around the defenders neck when challenging for the ball. He was rarely punished for it.
 

festa5

Well-known member
I suppose in football the argument is everyone is at it, so it doesn't take the shine off any victory. Teams aren't going to put themselves at a disadvantage, it needs the authorities to make a concerted effort to try and stamp it out. Won't happen of course because they're spineless and inept at anything other than accepting backhanders.

In response to the OP then I'd say no, as long as your opponent/s haven't also cheated. If they've cheated too then it's a bit more of a grey area. Particularly as there seems to be a sliding scale as to how bad some forms of cheating are. Some frowned upon much more than others.
 

Frozen Horse

Well-known member
I disagree with that Frozen Horse. Cheating has definately been with us for years but players kicking lumps out of each other, pulling shirts, taking free kicks and throw ins from anywhere but where the infringement occurred, holding players; these were all punished by the referee according to the laws of the game. These days much of that is ignored.
When I started going to games players sent off would be headline news, Even players getting booked had straplines.
Now we have people like shearer saying "he was entitled to go down" at the slightest hint of a tackle. Shearer was in my opinion one of the biggest cheats in football for the way he always had his arms around the defenders neck when challenging for the ball. He was rarely punished for it.

I disagree with some of that.
Kicking lumps out of a player is now dealt with far more harshly than I remember in the 80s and 90s. It was ignored in the past; it isn't now..
I don't think players are any worse at stealing a yard or two at a freekick or a throw in that they ever were, and I think the refs tolerate it as much as they ever did.

Holding I think is more common, and therein lies the problem with what you say about Shearer. Yes, holding is a foul, and it's not punished enough. So is the man being fouled just meant to accept it? I feel refs have made a rod for their own back by not awarding fouls unless players go down.

"When I started going to games players sent off would be headline news, Even players getting booked had straplines."

I think that's an interesting paradox. Is it not true that, the more you clamp down on foul play, the more of it there will be? The harsher refs become, the more red and yellows get meted out. Tackling has probably never been cleaner than it is now, and we get many more red cards for it that we ever have done before.
 

Trug

Well-known member
the more you clamp down on foul play, the more of it there will be?
How so? I am not sure what you mean by that.
 

Trug

Well-known member
Well , going back to my younger days in the 1960,s . the laws were black and white and not subject to someones interpretation of what they were and they were applied equally and fairly according to the referees judgement. The referee was given the utmost respect and any argument resulted in an instant booking.
 

S7DiscoDown

Well-known member
I don't I understand how suddenly 'contact' in the box is a pen? It's a contact sport.

It's got to be 'enough contact to put you down'. To go down because you've been touched is shocking.
 
There's levels isn't there.

Thing is pro sports people are paid to win and it's been their full time job and 24/7 obsession for their whole lives. We've all met ex pros but it's hard to get your head around how psychotically competitive they must be.

I think they'll take every tiny little possible advantage they can, and keep pushing the line to see where the line is. Because if they're not, you can bet the guy on the next team is.

Then there's a spectrum between a keeper taking an extra ten seconds to take a goal kick late in a tight match, and running a team-wide, sophisticated doping ring for a decade where you transfuse pints of your own blood jacked up with cloned hormones and steroids, mid-race, to give yourself inhuman powers and dominate the sport for 10 years (admittedly, where everyone else is doing the same thing).

I have to say, the speed, athleticism and intensity top footballers can maintain now compared to 10/20/30 years ago doesn't quite pass the sniff test for me in the same way that watching the endurance levels of top tennis players isn't just having a Red Bull before a match. You watch pressing teams like Leeds or Liverpool and they can maintain a full-on sprint for nearly 90 minutes. Reminds me of that old cycling quote, "You can't ride the Tour de France on bread and mineral water." Makes for an amazing spectacle though, and, like tennis, where's the incentive for governing bodies to look under the carpet if the sport has never been more rich, popular or higher quality.

Is winning more important than winning fairly? Do players sleep better at night if they've won fair and square? I doubt that Maradona, or Materazzi, or Sergio Ramos & Pepe, or every Uruguayan player ever 😂 won't look at pictures of trophies they've won through dark arts because they're ashamed of it - in the end, their job is to win stuff.

In a way, I sort of agree with Thierry Henry in that it's sort of the job of the rule-makers to define - and enforce - where the line is between gamesmanship and illegal. It's embarrassing to watch but players would argue that going down in the box on the slightest tap is just making it easier for the referee to make a decision because the game happens so fast. Neymar takes it a bit far like :D
 

Corco65

Well-known member
There's levels isn't there.

Thing is pro sports people are paid to win and it's been their full time job and 24/7 obsession for their whole lives. We've all met ex pros but it's hard to get your head around how psychotically competitive they must be.

I think they'll take every tiny little possible advantage they can, and keep pushing the line to see where the line is. Because if they're not, you can bet the guy on the next team is.

Then there's a spectrum between a keeper taking an extra ten seconds to take a goal kick late in a tight match, and running a team-wide, sophisticated doping ring for a decade where you transfuse pints of your own blood jacked up with cloned hormones and steroids, mid-race, to give yourself inhuman powers and dominate the sport for 10 years (admittedly, where everyone else is doing the same thing).

I have to say, the speed, athleticism and intensity top footballers can maintain now compared to 10/20/30 years ago doesn't quite pass the sniff test for me in the same way that watching the endurance levels of top tennis players isn't just having a Red Bull before a match. You watch pressing teams like Leeds or Liverpool and they can maintain a full-on sprint for nearly 90 minutes. Reminds me of that old cycling quote, "You can't ride the Tour de France on bread and mineral water." Makes for an amazing spectacle though, and, like tennis, where's the incentive for governing bodies to look under the carpet if the sport has never been more rich, popular or higher quality.

Is winning more important than winning fairly? Do players sleep better at night if they've won fair and square? I doubt that Maradona, or Materazzi, or Sergio Ramos & Pepe, or every Uruguayan player ever 😂 won't look at pictures of trophies they've won through dark arts because they're ashamed of it - in the end, their job is to win stuff.

In a way, I sort of agree with Thierry Henry in that it's sort of the job of the rule-makers to define - and enforce - where the line is between gamesmanship and illegal. It's embarrassing to watch but players would argue that going down in the box on the slightest tap is just making it easier for the referee to make a decision because the game happens so fast. Neymar takes it a bit far like :D
An interesting and insightful response JGS. What do you believe, have they really won?
 
Thanks very much. The mentality is so different when you only play for fun, it's hard to say.

I think if I nicked one in the Ashes, or handballed one off the line in the last minute it wouldn't bother me much. I'd think I'd got away with one, three full-time refs have missed it which is their problem and the world keeps turning, it'll go against us next week. Personally I'd like to think I'd draw the line at anything pharmaceutical purely for performance enhancing, that just feels dirty.

But then, if your knee hurts but you still want to play 5-a-side you have a couple of Ibuprofen before the match, I've done that loads. So where do you draw that line? What's treating injuries, what's putting you in the best physical condition and what's performance-enhancing to an unnatural level?

Side note, Jamie Vardy actually does have three Red Bulls and a double espresso before a game, caffeine not being a banned stimulant... You can see them often laid out in club dressing rooms and sports scientists agree. Absolutely mental = yeah. Cheating? Dunno, how many have the other team had?
 

the_holgate_roof

Well-known member
The term ‘win at all costs’ seems to ingrained in some people, as the money goes up so does the focus on this. I have a respect for young Phil Foden, he always tries to remain on his feet when challenged, even in the box , I bet he is vilified for it behind closed doors.
 
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