Cheating a question?

Corco65

Corco65

Well-known member
If an individual or a team wins (a medal, a match a cup etc) and it's written in the records and widely acknowledged and they take the acclaim of victory but they have won by cheating, have they really won?
 
One for Lance Armstrong perhaps?

It's odd isn't it, Lance is still a "seven times TdF winner" but Ben Johnson never won a thing...
 
I was thinking of someone like Bradley Wiggins too. Won Olympic medals, Tour de France's and gets a knighthood, then quickly retires and a little later there are lots of questions around the use of certain drugs but nothing proved.

The records and history shows he has won and nothing proven against him, only him and a few others know if he really won. There are plenty of other examples too, if it was me and I had not won fairly I would not consider myself or my team as a real winner as it would just feel fake.
 
Muttley said:
One for Lance Armstrong perhaps?

It's odd isn't it, Lance is still a "seven times TdF winner" but Ben Johnson never won a thing...
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Lance Armstrong was stripped of all his TdF titles... and got a lifetime ban from all pro sport.

Regarding the main question, it depends on the nature of the cheating to some extent. I guess most dopers try to justify it to themselves by saying that "everyone is doing it" (which they aren't). Having convinced themselves of that fact, victories will probably feel somewhat legitimate, as they've simply levelled the playing field by doping.

Until they are caught, I generally try to give pros the benefit of the doubt and assume they are clean.
 
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I definitely think most professionals are more than happy cheating.
Here's Thierry Henry's reaction to his blatant hand ball against Ireland.

“I will be honest, it was a handball. But I’m not the ref. I played it, the ref allowed it. That’s a question you should ask him.”
 
In football the answer is YES. It's rare to watch a match that doesn't have multiple instances of cheating, mainly diving and feigning injury. It's endemic and more or less an accepted part of the game now.
 
Centralscrutinizer said:
In football the answer is YES. It's rare to watch a match that doesn't have multiple instances of cheating, mainly diving and feigning injury. It's endemic and more or less an accepted part of the game now.
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I know its sounds pedantic, but one of the worse things I see with regards to cheating that never gets commented on is players appealing for throw ins and corners, when they know they haven't touched it. I know this seems really petty but I think it just shows the psyche of footballers that even little things like that they can't be honest about.

I sent a note to our junior fa a few months ago because during an under 12 game my lad was playing in, the ref had given a goal kick after one of my lads team had knocked the ball out. At least 4 of the opposition players shouted to the ref to tell him it should be a corner because it had touched one of their players before it went out. Every parent watching applauded the kids for their honesty.

When does this honesty get removed???
 
Pro sport is littered with such cases. Even the great Muhammad Ali when knocked down by Henry Cooper had his trainer slit his glove to buy an extra minute's recovery time.
 
Here’s another, I play in every round of a cup for a team, but are benched/dropped for a ringer for the final and don’t feature did I really win the cup?
 
It was depressing watching Man City play Dortmund the other night. A City player went down clutching his face after a Dortmund player (maybe) caught him on the knee. The ref gave a penalty, then overturned by VAR. A few minutes later, a Dortmund guy and the City goalie went for the same ball, the goalie went down clutching his leg despite the fact that there was no contact, the Dortmund guy scored but the ref disallowed it. VAR couldn't overrule the ref apparently.
 
In short, the stakes are too high in football days to NOT cheat. Immense pressure on teams to progress and win things as this leads to increased revenue. Translates into pressure on managers to get results otherwise they'll get the sack, effectively losing their income. Result - professionals using every avenue possible to get a competitive advantage in a match. Even things like goal and assist bonuses must have a bearing on this (if I took penalties for my side I'd go down every time an opposition player looked at me in the box).
 
Soutra said:
It was depressing watching Man City play Dortmund the other night. A City player went down clutching his face after a Dortmund player (maybe) caught him on the knee. The ref gave a penalty, then overturned by VAR. A few minutes later, a Dortmund guy and the City goalie went for the same ball, the goalie went down clutching his leg despite the fact that there was no contact, the Dortmund guy scored but the ref disallowed it. VAR couldn't overrule the ref apparently.
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It's why I can no longer watch football. It's undignified and completely embedded in the game now. It's terrible
 
I don't believe in blatant "cheating" - but I believe you should bend the rules as much as possible... that happens all the time in all walks of life
 
SmallTown said:
Do you think diving is ok then?
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Diving is tricky... because if no contact has been made then yeah its blatant cheating ... BUT if the player has felt some form of contact, then i'm all for the attacking player to "make the most of it"
 
Corco65 said:
22If an individual or a team wins (a medal, a match a cup etc) and it's written in the records and widely acknowledged and they take the acclaim of victory but they have won by cheating, have they really won?
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22nd June 1986, Azteca Stadium, Argentina 2 (Maradona 51, 55) England 1 (Lineker 81)
29th June 1986, Azteca Stadium, Argentina (Winners) 3 West Germany 2

Checkmate.
 
Centralscrutinizer said:
In football the answer is YES. It's rare to watch a match that doesn't have multiple instances of cheating, mainly diving and feigning injury. It's endemic and more or less an accepted part of the game now.
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Thing is, cheating has always been part of the game. Every foul breaks the rules, and players have always tried to see how much they can get away with; attempts to kick opponents out of the game and physically intimidate opposition players have been there for years.

Is that really different to what we see now, or was it somehow a "more honest form of cheating?"

I think fans must share in the blame though; when I started going to football, a red card would be followed by the player being booed off by his own fans. Now he's applauded off. Fans don't really care what he's done; if the player is wearing the right coloured shirt, we back them whatever they've done wrong.
 
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