Can you admit that Southgate is doing a great job yet?
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Uwefuchs
Well-known member
That people begrudge him any success
HarryVegas
Well-known member
Plenty do exactly that. Every time we win, he's lucky and if we go all the way it's all down to his luck in having such a great squad at his disposal.
parmoboy
Well-known member
It's an odd one really. The narrative being pushed at the moment is that he's a lucky manager, but we haven't performed poorly whilst having to rely on moments of individual brilliance at previous tournaments.
We finished top of our group at the last World Cup after beating Iran 6-2, and Wales 3-0. Yes it then meant that we got a favourable draw in the last 16 (Senegal) but we'd earned that right by finishing top of the group. At the last Euros we beat Germany 2-0 in the last 16. Fair enough it wasn't the best German side we've seen, but in the past we'd have more than likely crumbled under the pressure and probably been eliminated, either in normal time or on penalties.
Yes we can look at it and say that we have amazing attacking players and should be scoring more goals and winning more comfortably, but how many times have we said that in the past?
Southgate has achieved something which many managers have failed to do - he's made us difficult to score against whilst knowing that we have players who are capable of producing a moment of individual brilliance, to either keep us in the game, or win us the game.
I do have issues with regards to some of the decisions he makes with team selection, and he could be more proactive when it comes to making a substitution, rather than waiting until we go a goal down, but it does feel like we're due a good performance. I'm hoping we'll see that against the Dutch, and we won't have to be talking about why Southgate wasn't more proactive with his subs.
We finished top of our group at the last World Cup after beating Iran 6-2, and Wales 3-0. Yes it then meant that we got a favourable draw in the last 16 (Senegal) but we'd earned that right by finishing top of the group. At the last Euros we beat Germany 2-0 in the last 16. Fair enough it wasn't the best German side we've seen, but in the past we'd have more than likely crumbled under the pressure and probably been eliminated, either in normal time or on penalties.
Yes we can look at it and say that we have amazing attacking players and should be scoring more goals and winning more comfortably, but how many times have we said that in the past?
Southgate has achieved something which many managers have failed to do - he's made us difficult to score against whilst knowing that we have players who are capable of producing a moment of individual brilliance, to either keep us in the game, or win us the game.
I do have issues with regards to some of the decisions he makes with team selection, and he could be more proactive when it comes to making a substitution, rather than waiting until we go a goal down, but it does feel like we're due a good performance. I'm hoping we'll see that against the Dutch, and we won't have to be talking about why Southgate wasn't more proactive with his subs.
Uwefuchs
Well-known member
That's different to begrudging him having success, I'm sure everyone wants him to win.
We can think that him and the team should be performing better and still want him to win, they're not mutually exclusive.
VladKinder
Well-known member
Sorry, but he's a lucky manager.
Look at the players we have. Look at how we are playing.
Look at the players we have. Look at how we are playing.
naively_optimistic
Well-known member
I beg to differ...... In contrast to previous tournaments, England have been woeful and have looked nothing like a team. It isn't Southgate's fault at all..... The pathway to the semi finals has been arguably a much a easier one..... You can only beat what's in front of you..... But England have been lucky..... Anyone who argues differently is kidding themselves....
I have no issue against Southgate at all.....I hope England beat the Netherlands and beat the winners of Spain or France..... But they will need to be much better than previous rounds.....
SpineyNorman
Well-known member
My personal view is that, I don't care. This England team bore me to tears. I didn't even watch the match yesterday which is probably the first time ever in any tournament. We have stunk out this competition and if we do go on to win it it will be a huge "MEH" moment for me. I won't celebrate it at all. Had we won it 3 years ago, when we should have, I would have been dancing on the roof belting out Sweet Caroline.
That, for me, is the Southgate effect. He has made me not care.
That, for me, is the Southgate effect. He has made me not care.
Juninhoburger
Well-known member
Which we earned by topping our group.
naively_optimistic
Well-known member
I never said we didn't..... We didn't play well and it isn't Southgate's issue that other big teams didn't win their groups. That isn't the issue I'm raising.... The issue is.... England have been poor and arguably should be far better.... And they will need to be far better to win the tournament..... Which I hope they do and I hope they do for Southgate as well...... He's a decent guy with good values who has brought a culture to English football which is a credit to him...... But in this tournament England have been poor
Laughing
Well-known member
It was satire. However, his aim yesterday was to qualify, job done.
You can bitch and moan all you want. That doesn't change the facts.
Doom_On_Horseback
Well-known member
Every winning team rides their luck at tournaments.
Bobby Robsons England in Italia 90 (who a lot seem to put on a pedestal to aspire to) were every bit as turgid at the group stage as the current team. They qualified top in identical results as we’ve seen this year.
Next round, Belgium. I remember they had much more of the possession and came the closest to scoring twice, with Jan Cuelemens and Enzo Scifo both hitting the post. Had Scifos effort been an inch to the right, we’d have been going home.
Next Cameroon. 8 minutes from going home which would’ve seen the team vilified if they did. Everyone was hoping we drew them in the QF. We went toe to toe and extra time with them.
Arguably our only good performance in that World Cup was the game we lost.
Euro 96. Another tournament seen through nostalgic eyes as a glorious England side. Dreadful against the Swiss in the opener which we drew. Scotland missed a penalty to make it 1-1 and then Gazza magic. Played the Dutch off the park.
Spain in the QF. We’d have lost if VAR was around then. Again played very well against the Germans but our luck ran out!
Both of the above were seen as successful campaigns. We’ve had countless unsuccessful ones where we’ve been much worse.
Name any team who has ever won anything without a slice of luck.
Rofesleg
Well-known member
Maybe Brazil in 1970?
Unless having so many good players plus Pele is classed as lucky.
WoodallServices
Well-known member
I like no doubt many who were watching was saying “just eff off” Southgate at times during the match as it looks turgid but maybe in hindsight he’s not falling for the traps these teams are setting for us. Whilst on paper it looks like the easy side of the draw, on the other hand these are all well organised teams with nothing to lose and some bloody good players amongst them. The result is boredom as we try to play around them to get a goal and bring them out and opposing teams hoping to catch us on the break and then keep us out.
I think most European Championships have been the same since Greece won.
I think most European Championships have been the same since Greece won.
Glover_elbow
Well-known member
I think its the way international football has gone even the best teams are overly cautious not just England . France are absolutely fùcking dreadful to watch even worse than us, the dutch are light years behind their past teams, italy stunk out the place, germany not a patch on the past. Overall i think its been a very poor standard of tournament and a below par watch. Only spain have played on the front foot and have been exciting to watch.
BoroMart
Well-known member
Or exactly wrong.
The defence is much better than I expected our creativity is worse than I expected. The balanced view is that he’s got us resolute and winning but maybe we should be creating more
BoroMart
Well-known member
There are a lot of people around the country whose issues are personal and some are driven by the right wing press persistently attacking him
Frozen Horse
Well-known member
I think international football is often a more level playing field than domestic football now. Ok, maybe not San Marino etc. but, amongst the teams in this tournament, there is less difference in quality than between the top and bottom of the PL. We therefore don't get as many international sides making it look easy at tournaments.
I think the Euros is usually a lower scoring, less attacking tournament than the WC, though I admit the last Euros were an exception.
The Swiss held the Germans and comfortably beat Italy. Had we been playing either of those sides yesterday, we'd have been delighted to make it through on pens. Can't judge a team on their name, or what they did in the 90s. That's all irrelevant now.
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Doom_On_Horseback
Well-known member
I thought of them when writing it. Moving into the realms of pedantry when trying to pick holes in arguably the best team in history. Still, I’m sure all of their games didn’t go completely smoothly. 1-1 with Uruguay until the last 15 minutes in the semi. England missed a lot of good opportunities in their group game together.
Defending champions England had a lot of bad luck too! Captain arrested pre tournament, star goalie gets food poisoning prior to QF. Bobby Charlton subbed off against the Germans. A perfectly good goal disallowed and should’ve had an absolute stone wall penalty. Seriously, watch it. It’s incredible.
TeaCider
Well-known member
There was also nothing lucky about our penalty win.
They spend a lot of time in training focusing on penalty shootouts, they practice extensively for them.
They might have won without practicing, but it's not luck if you're following a deliberate strategy that pans out.
They spend a lot of time in training focusing on penalty shootouts, they practice extensively for them.
They might have won without practicing, but it's not luck if you're following a deliberate strategy that pans out.