Can you admit that Southgate is doing a great job yet?

Nano said:
I don't think we will be as fortunate with the draw again. We've already had 2 tournaments under Southgate where we have had a free run to the late stages.
Click to expand...
Given the Euros is 24 teams and the WC is now 48 teams, just winning your group is enough to give you a 'pass' to the latter stages assuming you avoid the banana skins (like Iceland - which Hodgson failed to do with a squad not that dissimilar to the one Southgate took to a WC semi-final).

Under Southgate we have won our groups, something previous managers often didn't achieve, hence why they had a 'harder' path.
 
Nano said:
Because you should be able to win half your 50/50 games not none of them.
Click to expand...
You've ignored the possibility of a draw. It's 33% chance of winning those games.

The list below is those games against top sides or tough away games. Some of these sides we were NOT even 505-50, such as France in 2017, they were simply a better squad than us

2017:
Germany 1-0 England FRIENDLY
Scotland 2-2 England WC QUAL
France 3-2 England FRIENDLY
W:0 D:1 L:2

2018:
Holland 0-1 England FRIENDLY
England 1-1 Italy FRIENDLY
Belgium 1-0 England WC
Croatia 2-1 England WC
Belgium 2-0 England WC
England 1-2 Spain NL
Croatia 0-0 England NL
Spain 2-3 England NL
England 2-1 Croatia NL
W:3 D:2 L:4

2019:
Holland 2-1 England NL
W:0 D:0 L:1

2020:
England 2-1 Belgium NL
Belgium 2-0 England NL
W:1 D:0 L:1

2021
England 1-0 Croatia EURO
England 0-0 Scotland EURO
England 2-0 EURO
England 1-1 Italy EURO
W:2 D:2 L:0

2022:
Germany 1-1 England NL
England 0-0 Italy NL
Italy 1-0 England NL
England 3-3 Germany NL
W:0 D:3 L:1

2023
England 2-3 France WC
Italy 1-2 England EURO Q
Scotland 1-3 England FRIENDLY
W:2 D:0 L:1

TOTAL:W:8 D:7 L:10


So we are overall slightly below win rate under Southgate IF you think we had a squad just as good as Belgium, Spain and Croatia in 2017, which we didn't. So we probably performed about on course.

The last 3 years is interesting though, our squad is much better than it was 3 years ago, and southgate has set them up to improve their results, we've over performed slightly. TOTAL for last 3 years: W:4 D:5 L:2
 
Nano said:
I don't think we will be as fortunate with the draw again. We've already had 2 tournaments under Southgate where we have had a free run to the late stages, and the Euros was at home. It's more likely we have to play a strong team in an earlier knock out round and Southgate doesn't win those games.
Click to expand...

As has already been said he has beaten decent sides in knockout football but the critics then move the goalposts to suggest they aren't decent sides anymore.

In addition as has already been said, a favourable route to the semis/final is all well and good but you still need to deliver when it matters and generations of players and managers have failed to deliver with winnable fixtures. You still have to get the job done and beat what's in front of you. Southgate has changed the mentality of the group to a positive mindset where they aren't afraid of the high pressure games anymore, they go out express themselves and (mostly) get the job done. That is a huge turnaround.

You might disagree with his tactics and feel someone could do better in the game management of those big games with tactics, timing or selection of substitutions. That's fair comment and constructive criticism, but to just completely right him off as useless and he's just hit lucky with the squad he has is completely unfair and shows an extremely biased view.
 
theredrooster said:
As has already been said he has beaten decent sides in knockout football but the critics then move the goalposts to suggest they aren't decent sides anymore.

In addition as has already been said, a favourable route to the semis/final is all well and good but you still need to deliver when it matters and generations of players and managers have failed to deliver with winnable fixtures. You still have to get the job done and beat what's in front of you. Southgate has changed the mentality of the group to a positive mindset where they aren't afraid of the high pressure games anymore, they go out express themselves and (mostly) get the job done. That is a huge turnaround.
Click to expand...

Exactly this.

In 2010 England had a v easy group that would have seen them play Ghana in the last 16, Uruguay in the quarter final then the Netherlands in the semi.

England managed to mess up the group and then were embarrassed by the Germans.

England have a brilliant crop of players and there is no guarantee we always will, but Southgate has performed better than any of his predecessors, Sir Alf apart.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
Exactly this.

In 2010 England had a v easy group that would have seen them play Ghana in the last 16, Uruguay in the quarter final then the Netherlands in the semi.

England managed to mess up the group and then were embarrassed by the Germans.

England have a brilliant crop of players and there is no guarantee we always will, but Southgate has performed better than any of his predecessors, Sir Alf apart.
Click to expand...
Yeah but that squad wasn't up to much was it? the 2 Coles, Gerrard, Terry, Lampard, Crouch, Rooney, Carragher, Defoe, King and our own Michael Carrick. Imagine what the great Fabio Capello could have done if he'd had any decent players at his disposal! ;) :LOL:

The group of Albania, USA and Slovenia was hardly the group of death. Still, we did better than 2014 when we managed to finish bottom of our group.
 
atypical_boro said:
Given the Euros is 24 teams and the WC is now 48 teams, just winning your group is enough to give you a 'pass' to the latter stages assuming you avoid the banana skins (like Iceland - which Hodgson failed to do with a squad not that dissimilar to the one Southgate took to a WC semi-final).

Under Southgate we have won our groups, something previous managers often didn't achieve, hence why they had a 'harder' path.
Click to expand...
England didn't top their group at the 2018 WC.
BoroMart said:
You've ignored the possibility of a draw. It's 33% chance of winning those games.
Click to expand...
We are talking about knock out games. You can't draw them because they go to penalties.

Not sure why you've included Scotland in a list of top teams. Friendlies also count for nothing so exclude all them as well. The Nations League are just re-badged friendlies, nobody really cares (I won't hold the poor results in the 2022 Nations League against him for the same reason). Knock-out football at major tournaments is the only thing that defines success. We have had 1 win in tournament knock-out football against a top side, Germany in the Euros, and we all know that German side was a shadow of its former self and we had the advantage of being at home.

theredrooster said:
In addition as has already been said, a favourable route to the semis/final is all well and good but you still need to deliver when it matters and generations of players and managers have failed to deliver with winnable fixtures. You still have to get the job done and beat what's in front of you. Southgate has changed the mentality of the group to a positive mindset where they aren't afraid of the high pressure games anymore, they go out express themselves and (mostly) get the job done. That is a huge turnaround.
Click to expand...
We have definitely had failures in the past where we got nowhere near the performances we should have and I commend Southgate for his ability to beat the easy teams. We don't lose those games and I won't criticise him for that at all. Sven gets hammered and yet he had the same record as Southgate in that he got through groups and lost to top teams in the knock-outs.


I'm not sure what people's points actually are. Are people really suggesting that Southgate is the best we can do? That we will win the Euros next year with him? That we shouldn't have done better at the last 3 tournaments? That he is better than some of the other failures we have had? He's obviously done a far better job than Hodgson, Capello and McClaren but that's nothing to do with whether people genuinely think he is our best chance of success or that what he has achieved is good enough and couldn't have been bettered?

I don't think it's controversial to think that we will never win anything under Southgate whilst also thinking we have the players available to win something.
 
Nano said:
England didn't top their group at the 2018 WC.
Click to expand...
No, but they did get over the banana skins of Colombia and Sweden. A 'path' previous managers may easily have come-a-cropper to. Lets not forget the squad Southgate inherited in 2016 and took to the semi was one that couldn't beat a country of 300,000 population in a knockout. That said, I felt we should have beaten Croatia in 2018, but it could have been worse.

They have won their groups in 2021 and 2022.
 
Cardiffdaffs said:
I absolutely recommend anybody to get a ticket and go and see Dear England which opens in the West End next month. I saw it at the National Theatre and it’s a brilliant window on Gareth Southgate and his philosophy.


www.princeedwardtheatre.co.uk

Dear England at Prince Edward Theatre in London

Book theatre tickets for Dear England at Prince Edward Theatre in London's West End.
www.princeedwardtheatre.co.uk www.princeedwardtheatre.co.uk
Click to expand...
I’ve seen it. Pricey though! Coming on Netflix soon.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top