Brexit benefit number 435

Will_Graham said:
The difference being the constituents voted in locally has a direct impact on who is subsequently in power.
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You don't vote for a candidate for president, but you do vote for parties that then decide who the Commission President/Council President/HRVP are. It's not an ideal system and there is democratic deficit (although the same could be said for the UK system), but you get a national commissioner and a say in who sits on the Parliament and by extension the Berlaymont.

Your head of government also sits on the council and ministers in the Council of Ministers.

It's as valid a system for a supranational organisation as any other.
 
SmallTown said:
We do.

I'm still waiting for those Brexit benefits
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I've told you one.
We are no longer members of the EU.

It was always obvious there would be short-term / medium-term problems, but in 10, 15, 20 years or whatever I hope it will be seen as the correct decision. So the benefits you are so keen to find will be experienced by our children/grandchildren.
Big picture stuff.
Not things like the availability of tasting menus in restaurants.

Granted the current government has probably made things worse and the transition more painful than it could have been, but that's a different argument really.
 
SmallTown said:
I worry they'll even find an excuse for that. They are good at using other events as excuses. Venezuelas claim on bits of Guyana is clearly to blaim for the fall of the NHS?

I do wonder what will happen when the brexiters run out of excuses. How they will deny reality then
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Akin to this government blaming the mess Labour left them for first 6 years or so and since then they have blamed the Covid pandemic. Never their fault though.
 
WJH. said:
Don't worry Will

Non of the pro EU posters know who Von Der Leyan is either. In fact there's never been a single thread where the EU is discussed

That's why it's so obviously a blag for middle aged/elderly men and those who don't live here to do moan about Brexit as they don't know anything about the EU either
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'Live here'. Do you mean your house? No, I don't live there, but I do live in the burning skip full of nappies that is post Brexit UK.

Oh, and good effort with Ursula. Not exactly right though.

And as a PPS, when did middle age suddenly become a mark of inability to apply reason?
 
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Will_Graham said:
I've told you one.
We are no longer members of the EU.

It was always obvious there would be short-term / medium-term problems, but in 10, 15, 20 years or whatever I hope it will be seen as the correct decision. So the benefits you are so keen to find will be experienced by our children/grandchildren.
Big picture stuff.
Not things like the availability of tasting menus in restaurants.

Granted the current government has probably made things worse and the transition more painful than it could have been, but that's a different argument really.
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This is a genuine question, with no spite of sarcasm:

What is the Big picture stuff?

I ask because the sovereignty argument is a sound one, but it doesn't seem to help us _do_ anything? It gives us lots of freedoms that would require a drastic altering of our economy to take advantage of - and Liz Truss already tried that.

So beyond your argument about who is in charge (an argument I respect but don't agree with) what are the things people will be thankful for in 10-29 years?
 
LaPennaBianca said:
This is a genuine question, with no spite of sarcasm:

What is the Big picture stuff?

I ask because the sovereignty argument is a sound one, but it doesn't seem to help us _do_ anything? It gives us lots of freedoms that would require a drastic altering of our economy to take advantage of - and Liz Truss already tried that.

So beyond your argument about who is in charge (an argument I respect but don't agree with) what are the things people will be thankful for in 10-29 years?
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Who knows? Not me, I'm not clever or wise enough. Call it a hunch.
My point is that I am not judging Brexit on every single annoyance and inconvenience that pops up now.
I am more concerned by the impact of who is currently in charge. That is something we can change.
 
Trug said:
Not necessarily- May, Truss and Sunak were chosen by a handful of people as were Major and Brown, With the exception of Brown, the 1922 committee had a huge say in these PM's. Does anybody know who is in the 1922 committee?
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Fair enough, I was referring more to the parties than to individuals.
 
Will_Graham said:
Who knows? Not me, I'm not clever or wise enough. Call it a hunch.
My point is that I am not judging Brexit on every single annoyance and inconvenience that pops up now.
I am more concerned by the impact of who is currently in charge. That is something we can change.
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Fair enough.

I read today that the unfortunate lot of Brexit is that it will likely be blamed for all sorts of things it isn't the reason for - as the EU was before.

The most interesting thing will be when the Labour party develops a pro-Europe caucus, which I assume it will soon after the next election. The leadership are all pro-Europe despite their current stance.

Demographic churn and economic reality will mean the UK and EU come to a better arrangement- but unfortunately it will be v asymmetric! Single market as a rule taker most likely. A massive Norway.
 
Will_Graham said:
Who knows? Not me, I'm not clever or wise enough. Call it a hunch.
My point is that I am not judging Brexit on every single annoyance and inconvenience that pops up now.
I am more concerned by the impact of who is currently in charge. That is something we can change.
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The issue is these are all directly related to Brexit. No matter how much people blame covid or Putin.

Thank good you can at least admit there's not clear benefit. Well done
 
SmallTown said:
You think that a benefit of something happening is that thing happening. It's not really an explanation is it. It's words, with nothing behind them
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Let me give you an example which might help explain.
My wife and I recently chose to move our family into a nicer part of town. That was the decision.

People might point out all the negatives.
I have a smaller house, no ensuite bathroom, no driveway. I'm further from the shops, I now need to get a bus then a train to work and not just a train. The back garden is shared, the heating and lighting system is less efficient.

So you might ask me to name one benefit of moving to a nicer area. I would answer that the benefit is I live in a nicer area.
Everything else is incidental. I can adapt and deal with them.
 
Will_Graham said:
Who knows? Not me, I'm not clever or wise enough. Call it a hunch.
My point is that I am not judging Brexit on every single annoyance and inconvenience that pops up now.
I am more concerned by the impact of who is currently in charge. That is something we can change.
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A hunch?

**** me.

With deductive reasoning like that behind people's decision making what are we all worried about? 🤦

Do us all a favour next time there's a referendum or an election. Please don't vote if you're not clever or wise enough to understand the consequences.
 
SmallTown said:
I thought that was a joke? So your only brexit benefit is that it happened? I'm not sure you understood the question 😁
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To be honest, I think it is you who do not understand the answer. The primary purpose of any political separatist is to achieve the political separation that they seek. It follows that the achievement of that separation is a benefit to them. It is not to me, which is why I did not vote for it. But it self evidently is for those who wished it. The refusal to accept this reply as even having validity is an example of how completely tangential the debate between remainers and leavers was. And is in no small way a reason why remain lost.

And it seems to be unique to Brexit. We would never accuse someone seeking Scottish independence as having an invalid view unless they solely sought to make an economic case. We would not have presented an Irish nationalist leader in the 1930s with relative GDP figures, and expected him to decide he had made a mistake and beg the King to come back. Only in relation to Brexit do we simply refuse to accept that the political question had any validity at all.

I did not wish to leave, but for those that did, the fact that we have is clearly a benefit per se, just as Scottish independence would be a benefit per se for a Scottish nationalist. It is absurd to refuse to accept it.
 
festa5 said:
A hunch?

**** me.

With deductive reasoning like that behind people's decision making what are we all worried about? 🤦

Do us all a favour next time there's a referendum or an election. Please don't vote if you're not clever or wise enough to understand the consequences.
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Ooooh, a dangerous road to go down.
IQ tests before votes? Personality analysis?
Anyway you'll be pleased to learn I didn't vote. I thought it best to leave the decision to all the armchair experts out there.
And nothing yet has convinced me that the majority got it wrong.
I think at some point in the future it will be looked back on as a good decision. That is my 'hunch'.
 
I voted to remain but supported the decision to honour the leave vote. With that caveat, I would have preferred a leave 'light' but this was never really available after the 2019 election. I don't share the view that we've been evicted from the Garden of Eden, however. Here's a Guardian article from last week (Larry Elliott - economics editor) '...why rejoining is just a pipe dream'


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Will_Graham said:
So you might ask me to name one benefit of moving to a nicer area. I would answer that the benefit is I live in a nicer area.
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OK. You are a xenophobe then?

Otherwise not a scooby what you are on about. You don't like Europe and want to move the UK into the Pacific? I like your ambition.

Assuming you voted leave, please think a little more carefully when next you are afforded the privilege and perhaps ask questions and consider thinking about the impact on other people rather than what's in it for you.
 
Muttley said:
OK. You are a xenophobe then?

Otherwise not a scooby what you are on about. You don't like Europe and want to move the UK into the Pacific? I like your ambition.

Assuming you voted leave, please think a little more carefully when next you are afforded the privilege and perhaps ask questions and consider thinking about the impact on other people rather than what's in it for you.
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No, it wasn't meant to be a like for like hypothetical example. It was a real life example. To try and show the benefit of a decision (or vote) being the actual thing you voted for.
In my case, living in a nicer area of town.
In the case of Brexit, not being in the EU.

FishofContemplation explained it better.
 
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