Brentford- the club to emulate

If your goal is solely to use players as a commodity their doing well . Until their get promoted their have been successful in the way any fan really wants their club to be .
 
HolgateCorner said:
Thanks for posting this, some sizeable ‘gambles’ in there (no pun intended) so clearly taking the pick of the bunch by offering more transfer fee and presumably wages to land the player.

Sign of a very well financed Championship club.
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You have to go back to 14/15 to find a season where they spent more than they sold. So yes, very well financed by their model/player sales.
 
TeaCider said:
I know
I'm very impressed by the Brentford model of doing things, but I think it's a misrepresentation to imply they're doing it on a shoestring.

They've invested a lot of money over the years to get where they are now, that they've recovered plenty through transfer fees doesn't change that.

The fact we spunked away far more under Monk doesn't either.
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They’ve invested a lot and bought the land for and built a new stadium at the same time, they’ve got pots of money and it’s helping them.

But in that respect they are no different to many other clubs in the Championship or any other league for that matter.

It comes down to money at the end of the day unfortunately, if there was an easy way everybody would be using it.
 
B-Man said:
You have to go back to 14/15 to find a season where they spent more than they sold. So yes, very well financed by their model/player sales.
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Unfortunately I agree with you in that as a selling club they are doing well (in the past few years).

My point is that this is underwritten by wealth, the club has a lot of money which means they can operate in a way which other clubs would be nervous to finance.
 
B-Man said:
It isnt easy, that’s the point. They’re a really well run, progressive thinking club.
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You are ignoring my point that they have a lot of money as if that does not matter, but it does, it has a major contribution to being really well run, progressive etc etc.
 
TeaCider said:
I don't think it does.

That's just a list of their successful sell ons.
I presume there is a decent number of players they've also paid significant fees for that haven't panned out.

They're paying very competitive transfer fees for lower league players.

We always overpay for players, we paid £3m for Marvin Johnson, but that doesn't mean that Brentford's signings are cheap.
It just means ours are daft.

You could look as the summer before last as an example of us doing similar to Brentford.
Paid £1m for Bola, £2m for Dijksteel.
Both sizeable fees for players from League One, but they all look to have panned out as decent signings that I could see us making money on if we sell them.
Browne from West Ham for £300,000 could prove to be a steal if he recovers from his injury well.
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Wasn’t Adrian Bevington involved in several of these “view to the future” signings? And then apparently turfed out when they didn’t turn out to be instant successes for the manager of the day?
 
Brentford's owner, Matthew Bentham, although often described as a professional gambler, is a statistician, data scientist and Oxford physics graduate. He applies his analytical skills to everything he does. He is secretive in the sense that all professional investors, traders and, yes, gamblers, hold their cards close to their chests. Brentford's success is largely due to Bentham's superior, evidence-based judgement. He's not some oligarch having a bit of fun.
 
HolgateCorner said:
My point is that this is underwritten by wealth, the club has a lot of money which means they can operate in a way which other clubs would be nervous to finance.
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But we've had more money in and spent more in those years? So we by your reckoning are a wealthy club with lots of money to spend?

By any metric, Brentford are doing very well for their outlay., and much better than us. You just keep going back to land in London being expensive and their owner being some sort of shady gambler. Surely the expense of land and being in London is a negative as well as a positive? It has cost more to build the stadium than it would outside Darlo, so that is money they couldn't spend on the squad. They also had their old Stadium I assume they've sold or re-developed?

Why is the fact he's made his money from gambling and not shipping bulk chemicals an issue?

You seem to be saying he's rich, it's wealth, that's bad, or the reason they have had success. When we have been one of the richest clubs in the second tier for a decent chunk of our relegated years but we have wasted nearly all of that advantage & investment. To the point where at the start of the season we could be barely but an an experienced matchday squad out, and we currently stand to lose a £22 million out lay on strikers plus God knows what in wages for nothing in four months time.

You could easily say that if it wasn't for clubs cheating FFP like Villa and Wolves did, or the benefit of parachute payments allowing other clubs to sign players beyond their means that Brentford would probably have been promoted already. How much did we lose the year we beat them in the play-offs?
 
Caesium137 said:
But we've had more money in and spent more in those years? So we by your reckoning are a wealthy club with lots of money to spend?

By any metric, Brentford are doing very well for their outlay., and much better than us. You just keep going back to land in London being expensive and their owner being some sort of shady gambler. Surely the expense of land and being in London is a negative as well as a positive? It has cost more to build the stadium than it would outside Darlo, so that is money they couldn't spend on the squad. They also had their old Stadium I assume they've sold or re-developed?

Why is the fact he's made his money from gambling and not shipping bulk chemicals an issue?

You seem to be saying he's rich, it's wealth, that's bad, or the reason they have had success. When we have been one of the richest clubs in the second tier for a decent chunk of our relegated years but we have wasted nearly all of that advantage & investment. To the point where at the start of the season we could be barely but an an experienced matchday squad out, and we currently stand to lose a £22 million out lay on strikers plus God knows what in wages for nothing in four months time.

You could easily say that if it wasn't for clubs cheating FFP like Villa and Wolves did, or the benefit of parachute payments allowing other clubs to sign players beyond their means that Brentford would probably have been promoted already. How much did we lose the year we beat them in the play-offs?
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This thread was about Brentford wasn‘t it, not a comparison with the Boro?

I don’t know why a few of you have such an issue with me pointing out that behind little Brentford’s (relative) success to date, there is a lot of money, it’s not just about good recruitment and team management.

As for their secretive owner, yes you are correct he has made a lot of money out of the gambling industry.
 
Caesium137 said:
But we've had more money in and spent more in those years? So we by your reckoning are a wealthy club with lots of money to spend?
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That goes without saying, surely?

Between 2015 and 2019 we were the highest spenders in the Championship.
We got promoted whilst being highest spenders, we failed to get promoted whilst being highest spenders.

Obviously Wolves probably spent more unofficially, given how dodgy they aren but we'd still have been 2nd highest spenders.

We're now in a bit of a financial hole, but a good part of that is because of how much we'd spent in those 4 years.
 
TeaCider said:
That goes without saying, surely?

Between 2015 and 2019 we were the highest spenders in the Championship.
We got promoted whilst being highest spenders, we failed to get promoted whilst being highest spenders.

Obviously Wolves probably spent more unofficially, given how dodgy they aren but we'd still have been 2nd highest spenders.

We're now in a bit of a financial hole, but a good part of that is because of how much we'd spent in those 4 years.
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That’s what I am saying, Holgates posts seem to be inferring that Brentford are a financial powerhouse with a wealthy owner. Which is being the deciding factor in their relative performance in the transfer market. We have that, and have spent more and the bulk of our squad is worth very little in comparison.

@HolgateCorner would you feel any different about the set up or his money if it was from running a successful local business with strong community links? I seem to recall you were quite passionate about your hatred of gambling etc in another thread.
 
Brentford are an excellently run club but I don't think it is a model we could pull off or would be a good fit for the Boro.

We have a recent history of relative top flight success, Brentford were last up in the first division in the 40s, so expectations are much different. Brentford might find if they get promoted that it isn't as easy to go under the radar picking up value for money signings.

Brentford also have the London factor, so can probably attract a type of player on a punt from abroad we can't and can have plenty of European players hanging around on the fringes of the first team.
 
Caesium137 said:
That’s what I am saying, Holgates posts seem to be inferring that Brentford are a financial powerhouse with a wealthy owner. Which is being the deciding factor in their relative performance in the transfer market. We have that, and have spent more and the bulk of our squad is worth very little in comparison.

@HolgateCorner would you feel any different about the set up or his money if it was from running a successful local business with strong community links? I seem to recall you were quite passionate about your hatred of gambling etc in another thread.
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No, I’m not bothered about how he has made his money provided it is legal. I don’t gamble myself but each to their own, if I’ve criticised it in the past it will be on the basis of tempting people who have little enough money to potentially waste what they have left but I do accept that’s up to individuals having some self control really.

My point on this thread, and my only point, is that ‘little’ Brentford have a lot of money which is helping them a lot.

I think one or two posters have inferred it is because they are a very well run outfit with excellent recruitment and an attacking team style which helps them attract players, as if they have found some secret formula for success. I don’t think they have, I think at the core of it is the money.

That’s all I’ve been saying, I haven‘t joined in the comparison between the Boro and them, we could be here for weeks doing that.
 
Otto42 said:
Brentford are an excellently run club but I don't think it is a model we could pull off or would be a good fit for the Boro.

We have a recent history of relative top flight success, Brentford were last up in the first division in the 40s, so expectations are much different. Brentford might find if they get promoted that it isn't as easy to go under the radar picking up value for money signings.

Brentford also have the London factor, so can probably attract a type of player on a punt from abroad we can't and can have plenty of European players hanging around on the fringes of the first team.
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Finally! Otto42 I fully agree with you - Brentford is an experiment their fanbase is happy to back. We don't give experiments time because overall as a club in a less affluent part of the country competing with many clubs of a similar size with similar catchment areas we can't afford to. Any talk from a manager who says 'it's going to take 3-4 seasons to reset the club before we can compete for automatic promotion' gets nothing but grumbling here. But this is because we know that the bigger we are the better the players we attract and the stronger we become and the more secure the short term future of our club will be.

Our attendances fluctuate significantly with performance on the pitch. Disillusionment is a direct hit on revenue. Which has a big impact on budget and the prospects we can offer a player weighing up a move here or elsewhere.

This is the same challenge facing clubs like Leeds, Sunderland, Blackburn, Bolton, Sheffield Wednesday, Huddersfield, Hull City, and a whole clutch of clubs up and down the A1 and across the M62. Leeds are at the top of the cycle reaping the rewards (albeit hit by lack of fans) while Sunderland and Hull are at the bottom looking to get going again - all the rest are fighting to keep on the hamster wheel.

Brentford, like Bournemouth have a smaller more affluent fanbase and can be a bit more agile as a club and shake off bad years without it affecting their core support. Look at their new stadium - only 17,000 and its been built as a multi-purpose community hub. They're under no illusion that what goes up must eventually come down - and that when they do come down, there won't be that many people outside the core support who will notice that much.
 
I would be very happy to emulate Brentford. However, I remain sceptical that our fan base would accept a couple of principles of their model.

1. It's not all about this season, or even next season. Brentford have grown their strength steadily over 6-7 years and have still not achieved promotion. I think it will become because they're very stable. However, I suspect our fans would have called for complete overhauls, top to bottom, 2 or 3 times in that time frame.

2. We will sell our best players. For Brentford, this is a fact of life. If we were to accept that ultimately the likes of Tav, McNair and Dijksteel will all be sold to higher ranking clubs before we get promotion; would there not be outrage on here about lack of ambition?

I have no problem being like Brentford, but if we take that approach, I'd expect there to be no whinging about either of those points. It's easy to say "we should be like Brentford" when they've just walloped us. However, it's a complete package: you want to be like them, you accept these aspects of their model.
 
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I wonder what the reaction would be if we got to the play off final and lost and then sold Dael Fry and Paddy McNair.
Or take it back a few years and Brentford lose to Middlesbrough in the play offs the highest finish since WWII and they immediately part company with manager Mark Warburton - in fact win or lose he is going after the play offs. Is it nine times they have failed to win a play off.
I think they are fantastically well run club but I don't think Boro fans would put up with a model of selling every couple of seasons. Just look at how every time Patrick Bamford scores people react with anger. Pulis says he sold the only assets anyone wanted to buy to keep the club on a level.
As Neil Warnock points out it was hard cash (£10m) not algorithms that bought Ivan Toney. Players like Ollie Watkins were also scouted before they brought in a money ball system as The Bees had a fantastic scouting network for years. Dedicated scouts who worked with inner city youngsters but they were always up against it getting talented youngsters like Stirling stolen from under their noses by big clubs who can hoover up talent.
 
Clubs can't all operate the same model.
Brentford have their model and it is doing remarkably well for a very small club in terms of fan base.
Their small fan base means they have more tolerant supporters, but that support base is seeing progress and good football along the way.

Recruit/Develop/Sell/Recruit again is their model on an upward trajectory.
They are financially very well run, but are self financing through profit on player disposal. That takes:

1. Fantastic judgement in who to recruit.
2. Courage and skill in determining how much to pay in fee and wages.
3. Very good coaching to ensure talent develops in a successful team environment.
4. Excellent judgement on who to sell, when and on what terms.

Money does not guarantee you this.
The Finance muscle that the ownership brings has no doubt been of great help with the ability to move stadium, but even then they have a valuable site disposed and have built very sensibly.
Their player acquisition has been self funded and has been about good leadership, judgement and people.

Credit where its due, they are highly likely to go up because of a lot of factors, not just the pure wealth of their owner.

Holgate Corner - I do not knock Boro, I criticise some of Steve Gibson's decisions and actions - there is a big (and healthy) difference.
 
Am I going mad here. Nobody is saying become Brentford down to every league finish, play off place, or future outlook, Stadium size etc.

People are saying emulate how Brentford have approached recruitment and integrating players into an attacking system and philosophy that is maintained through the club as the managers come and go, selling when you have to so you can continue to build.

Exactly like the golden thread Woodgate press conference in fact.

Just not with some old mate/boyhood crush/wine importer in charge of it.

It can't be impossible, or you would think even that difficult to appoint someone who can do a better job of recruitment than we have for the last five or six years?

Imagine if we had spent a couple of percent of what we spent signing Rudi, Braithwaite, Fletcher, Britt & loaning Hugill on setting up a better way of scouting assessing and signing players.

I do think London has some pull, but if we were going in for players from League 1 or 2 I'd expect us to be able to put an attractive enough offer together to get them over the line in most cases, as long as we aren't competing directly with wealthier clubs or those in perceived better areas.
 
festa5 said:
No chance with Gibbo in charge. His decision making and long term planning is appalling. His football judgement is poor. Prime example him thinking Pulis is some sort of football guru.

The positives are when he does appoint a good manager, arguably more luck than judgement, he will back them (as far as possible). He might gamble from time to time but always seems to have a plan B and financially I feel were in safe hands. He won't let us get into serious trouble on that front and for that reason I'm quite happy with him in charge. He's a very capable businessman obviously.

But he's been here how long? Plenty of talk of long term planning, developing a style etc. in that time. He just doesn't know how to deliver it and/or can't identify the right people to do it for him.

Warnock is perfect for him as it's someone he'll trust implicitly who genuinely does know what he's doing.

To have a set up like Brentford where it doesn't really matter who the manager is though? Forget it, the leadership at the club is nowhere near capable of a project like that. We're still better off than the vast majority though.
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Did not agree with much if that. It's easy to select a team doing well at the moment. Why not choose Sunderland?

Our chairman has made mistakes, Sir Alex could not pick a goalkeeper, you would have sacked him.
 
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