Bitcoin News Thread

I’m not going to watch propaganda videos @VladKinder .

Can you please précis to explain to me the intrinsic value of bitcoin. What am I missing? I can’t see it having any utility
 
northernrower said:
Don't be bitter if you haven't made money from it. As explained, there's still time for you to get in.
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I'm not bitter. Please don't project. I just have a feeling that it's basically a money making scheme and has no actual utility and purpose. Perhaps you can explain what it's purpose is?
 
SmallTown said:
I'm not bitter. Please don't project. I just have a feeling that it's basically a money making scheme and has no actual utility and purpose. Perhaps you can explain what it's purpose is?
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It is used to make money and obviously that's the big draw for most people. There's nothing wrong with that

It's purpose however is that it's a currency.
 
I wouldn't touch bitcoin on its energy usage alone, much like I wouldn't invest in arms manufacturers or oil companies. All good ways to make money, but I'd rather have less if that's what that means

Something is only ever worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That's working for bitcoin for now and if it's working for you, good on you. Just not a game I choose to play for my own reasons.
 
Vlad - you have won me over, from skeptic to believer in a dozen posts. I am now going to invest my kids college fund into Bitcoin but I will hold you personally accountable for any losses.

I don't have a lot of knowledge of Crypto but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.
 
Brian Marwood said:
Vlad - you have won me over, from skeptic to believer in a dozen posts. I am now going to invest my kids college fund into Bitcoin but I will hold you personally accountable for any losses.

I don't have a lot of knowledge of Crypto but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.
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Not once have I ever said people should put their life savings into a volatile asset. In fact if you are read my posts I have said the exact opposite.
 
Posters have to remember Bitcoin and Crypto is a currently just a tool for speculation. To me if people want to invest it should be only 2 to 3% of their total assets. Its value is purely based on speculative demand. Unlike say a tech company that makes profits and has assets of his own such as Apple and Google.
 
northernrower said:
It is used to make money and obviously that's the big draw for most people. There's nothing wrong with that

It's purpose however is that it's a currency.
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There is, if it's serving no purpose other than to make you money. Which confirms my feelings about bitcoin. It doesn't actually do anything.

And is it a currency though? it doesn't have much utility there. The bar I was in last night didn't take Bitcoins.
 
SmallTown said:
There is, if it's serving no purpose other than to make you money. Which confirms my feelings about bitcoin. It doesn't actually do anything.

And is it a currency though? it doesn't have much utility there. The bar I was in last night didn't take Bitcoins.
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Did they take Yen, Roubles or Dollars? No, maybe they aren't currencies either...

It is officially legal tender in one country, El Salvador.

There's a reason we don't use SmallTown's anecdotes as fact and this is one of them. Imagine if someone had said they couldn't charge their EV in the bar they were in so EV's can't be charged in public. That's how dumb your comment was.
 
SmallTown said:
I'm not bitter. Please don't project. I just have a feeling that it's basically a money making scheme and has no actual utility and purpose. Perhaps you can explain what it's purpose is?
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I don't think there is any point in debating with you as you have already made up your mind.
So this will be my only reply.

My case is:

20% of Gold's value can be attributed to it's uses.
80% of it's value is that society has decided that it is a store of value.
Platinum is far more rare yet is less valuable than Gold.
So once again it's all to do with what society accepts has value.

Let's forget about the 20% of Gold's value from it's uses,
and just look at the 80% store of value, which is the main use case for Bitcoin.
It being used as a currency and a better alternative than Moneygram and WU are just bonus features.

Bitcoin is more scarce than Gold.
Is more deflationary.
Has a pre-determined issuance schedule that makes it more scarce over time whilst new Gold is found all the time (recently $8B new Gold found in China)
Gold is controlled by Governments and central banks. Bitcoin is not.
Bitcoin can be sent anywhere in the World without needing approval from anyone. Gold can not.
Bitcoin has it's own global network. Gold is a dumb rock.
Bitcoin can not be diluted. Gold can be (normally with Tungsten base).
Large amounts of Bitcoin can be taken by people fleeing war and corrupt Governments. Gold can not.
People can take large amounts of Bitcoin with them in hard wallets through Airports. Gold can not.

So which is the better store of value?


People will decide over time.
If they think Bitcoin is a better store of value. The price goes up as it becomes more scarce.
If they decide it isn't then the price goes down.

Or the probably the answer is that both Gold and Bitcoin go up in value as Governments print more money.
 
VladKinder said:
I don't think there is any point in debating with you as you have already made up your mind.
So this will be my only reply.

My case is:

20% of Gold's value can be attributed to it's uses.
80% of it's value is that society has decided that it is a store of value.
Platinum is far more rare yet is less valuable than Gold.
So once again it's all to do with what society accepts has value.

Let's forget about the 20% of Gold's value from it's uses,
and just look at the 80% store of value, which is the main use case for Bitcoin.
It being used as a currency and a better alternative than Moneygram and WU are just bonus features.

Bitcoin is more scarce than Gold.
Is more deflationary.
Has a pre-determined issuance schedule that makes it more scarce over time whilst new Gold is found all the time (recently $8B new Gold found in China)
Gold is controlled by Governments and central banks. Bitcoin is not.
Bitcoin can be sent anywhere in the World without needing approval from anyone. Gold can not.
Bitcoin has it's own global network. Gold is a dumb rock.
Bitcoin can not be diluted. Gold can be (normally with Tungsten base).
Large amounts of Bitcoin can be taken by people fleeing war and corrupt Governments. Gold can not.
People can take large amounts of Bitcoin with them in hard wallets through Airports. Gold can not.

So which is the better store of value?


People will decide over time.
If they think Bitcoin is a better store of value. The price goes up as it becomes more scarce.
If they decide it isn't then the price goes down.

Or the probably the answer is that both Gold and Bitcoin go up in value as Governments print more money.
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I haven’t made my mind up which is why I was asking the question. Surely bitcoin is only rare by design. Goes back to the utility question which I don’t think has been answered, except in terms of “to increase its value” which in my opinion isn’t a utility. It doesn’t have a functional purpose. That’s the bit I struggle with. So much energy and money being invested in something that is only designed to make more money. It doesn’t benefit
 
Nano said:
Did they take Yen, Roubles or Dollars? No, maybe they aren't currencies either...

It is officially legal tender in one country, El Salvador.

There's a reason we don't use SmallTown's anecdotes as fact and this is one of them. Imagine if someone had said they couldn't charge their EV in the bar they were in so EV's can't be charged in public. That's how dumb your comment was.
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Not really no. As you’ve pointed out it only has value as a currency in one, small, Central American country. So it makes no sense that anyone not trading with or purchasing in El Salvador to be involved in it, it doesn’t add any value.

I’ll try and ignore the “dumb” comment. I know some of you can’t discuss things in a civil manner.
 
SmallTown said:
Not really no. As you’ve pointed out it only has value as a currency in one, small, Central American country. So it makes no sense that anyone not trading with or purchasing in El Salvador to be involved in it, it doesn’t add any value.

I’ll try and ignore the “dumb” comment. I know some of you can’t discuss things in a civil manner.
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Your comment was dumb. I didn't say you are dumb, I know you aren't dumb, but your comment was dumb.

SmallTown said:
I haven’t made my mind up which is why I was asking the question. Surely bitcoin is only rare by design. Goes back to the utility question which I don’t think has been answered, except in terms of “to increase its value” which in my opinion isn’t a utility. It doesn’t have a functional purpose. That’s the bit I struggle with. So much energy and money being invested in something that is only designed to make more money. It doesn’t benefit
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All the information about bitcoin that you will ever need to know is available. It is rare by design because it's original purpose is to act as an alternative to the centralised fiat currency system that already existed. It isn't designed to make money. It doesn't make money. 1 bitcoin is 1 bitcoin and always will be but the scarcity of it is the whole point. It is a hedge against inflation. The supply of USD (and other currencies) is increased every year. Every time they do that it reduces the value of the currency you own and the value of the work that you do. $1 is not $1 forever. $1 100 years ago is now worth 1% of what it was because the supply is constantly increasing.

You can work and save your whole life and then a government can decide to inflate away the value of your savings. Inflation is bad for people. It's good for the economy, or more accurately the rich people within an economy who can leverage debt better than you or I can. Every year you have to negotiate with your employer just to stand still. Getting an inflation matching payrise is seen as a good thing but all it lets you do is maintain your lifestyle.

It is also a counter to the banking system. If you have your money in a bank then you don't own it. It's not really a problem for us in the UK. We don't have to pay account fees or transaction fees and we're not an unstable country but many countries do. Some countries control who can even have access to a bank account. 25% of the global population are unbanked. A decentralised system that allows them to pay for goods and services without involving the government is a solution.

You arguments are all ignorant because the information is available and instead of seeking it out and educating yourself you ask nonsensical questions. You seem obsessed with the "intrinsic value" of bitcoin despite not holding any other asset to the same standard. Gold has some intrinsic value but the majority of its value is not derived from the intrinsic part. Businesses are almost always valued completely differently than their intrinsic values.
 
Nano said:
You arguments are all ignorant because the information is available and instead of seeking it out and educating yourself you ask nonsensical questions. You seem obsessed with the "intrinsic value" of bitcoin despite not holding any other asset to the same standard.
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I guess this is where the confusion lies. I'm asking the question because I can't think of another "thing" that doesn't have an intrinsic value, doesn't have a utility beyond it's own self I've already mentioned the intrinsic values of holding gold, or shares in a company. It's a simple question that has yet to be answered but you all just want to get angry instead. I guess that's the internet for yas.

I guess art doesn't come to think of it? Is an aesthetic value actually a value? Don't know. Maybe collecting bitcoin is like collecting rare art? Without the beauty of course.

I guess deep down it boils down to this who invest in things that have a purpose and those that invest purely to make money. I guess you can't see bitcoins lack of value if all you care about is profiting from it. And that's fine. Your prerogative. It's just a tragic road for the world to go down if money is made from things of no value
 
SmallTown said:
I guess this is where the confusion lies. I'm asking the question because I can't think of another "thing" that doesn't have an intrinsic value, doesn't have a utility beyond it's own self I've already mentioned the intrinsic values of holding gold, or shares in a company. It's a simple question that has yet to be answered but you all just want to get angry instead. I guess that's the internet for yas.

I guess art doesn't come to think of it? Is an aesthetic value actually a value? Don't know. Maybe collecting bitcoin is like collecting rare art? Without the beauty of course.

I guess deep down it boils down to this who invest in things that have a purpose and those that invest purely to make money. I guess you can't see bitcoins lack of value if all you care about is profiting from it. And that's fine. Your prerogative. It's just a tragic road for the world to go down if money is made from things of no value
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Wow, that's some poetic bullcrap.

I've just listed some utilities but you've ignored it all and concentrated on the meaningless intrinsic value part.

Gold has no intrinsic value, art has no intrinsic value, money has no intrinsic value. I don't know if you still carry cash in this digital world but if you do the £10 note you have is not intrinsically worth £10. It's a flimsy bit of plastic/paper. If you have a read of the front it says "I promise to pay the bearer £10". It's essentially a voucher. It has worth because there is a confidence that it has worth. It is not backed by anything other than confidence.

You are correct that bitcoin has no intrinsic value but most things don't. Why are lab grown diamonds so much cheaper than mined diamonds? Why is a Hermes bag worth so much money compared to another bag made of the same materials? Why is a Rolex more expensive than a Seiko? The intrinsic value of the clothes you are wearing, the car drive, the phone in your hand, the house you live in is way below the value it actually cost you to buy any of them. That's how businesses make a profit. The capitalist system that we live in means pretty much everything is based on money derived from things which have no intrinsic value. There is more that gives something value than the intrinsic value. Pretty much anything that you can invest in was made purely to make money. All those companies you invest in will do their utmost to ensure they contribute as little as possible to society by dodging tax. If anything, Bitcoin was invented for the opposite reason.

I find it really amusing that the people you cry about lying and misunderstanding EVs behave exactly the same way you are acting on this topic. Anything anti-EV you decry as funded by vested interests from big oil which is a far smaller sector than the one that has the most to lose from Bitcoin succeeding.

If you were really all about the ethics of it then I'm sure we'd be hearing from you about the negatives of gold mining. A process that is far more destructive, energy intensive, environmentally damaging and unethical. The worst thing about gold mining is that it isn't even necessary. There is far more gold already mined than will ever be used but it is horded away. The intrinsic value of it is minimal compared to the actual value. Bitcoin mining uses energy, a lot of it, but it uses it for a reason and that is to protect the integrity of bitcoin. It is also not as energy intensive as it seems because bitcoin mining has to be profitable for it to be worthwhile and that means using cheap energy. People aren't mining bitcoin in the UK with our massive energy prices but places that produce excess energy are basically giving it away. Is it wasteful if it wasn't being used anyway? That's definitely not the case with gold mining which happens wherever the gold is, not where the excess energy is.

See below for an example of how we waste energy. Other countries allow Bitcoin miners to use that waste energy where instead we pay the operators compensation to stop generating electricity.

octopus.energy

Let's stop wasting wind power

Right now, wind turbines are being switched off even when they're spinning fast and generating loads of cheap, clean energy. Find out how we're helping to transform the energy system with green initiatives, ideas and innovation.
octopus.energy octopus.energy
 
Nano said:
Wow, that's some poetic bullcrap.


I find it really amusing that the people you cry about lying and misunderstanding EVs behave exactly the same way you are acting on this topic.
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Insults. Ah that's lovely. Stay classy mate.

If I understand correctly the "utility" you give is that it's a currency in a small country and it's a store of value? I get that, but it doesn't change my mind that this gives it no actual utility (Outside of El Slavador)

I know you have accused me of lying, but I guess that's because you can't understand what I'm asking (It's not possible to lie in a question, because it is a question)

I think the confusion stems from the fact you consider "to make money" a utility and I don't. Can we agree with that? Or have a missed something? And try and answer with decency if you are able. Stop with the insults, it's not a good look.
 
Bitcoin is a very new form of money, no one can say its supply will be limited for ever, but we have 4,000 years of Gold's history to look back on. Bitcoin is backed by technology which changes over time as some of have seen in our lifetimes.

Gold is not controlled by Governments - the mines are privately owned and private organisations hold gold in many forms, jewellery, watches, objects, coins, bars, even mobile phones. Central banks have large stocks of gold but they do not hold all the stocks of gold.

Bit coin has increased in value a lot, but it is more volatile than gold and volatility is a consideration.

Bitcoin and gold do have some similar characteristics, neither should be held in large quantities in my opinion, but a very small % of each in total assets for a person could be sensible. I am concerned some younger people are putting a lot of their savings into Bitcoin, because they have seen it rise a lot in their life time and it is a modern digital asset.
 
SmallTown said:
Insults. Ah that's lovely. Stay classy mate.

If I understand correctly the "utility" you give is that it's a currency in a small country and it's a store of value? I get that, but it doesn't change my mind that this gives it no actual utility (Outside of El Slavador)

I know you have accused me of lying, but I guess that's because you can't understand what I'm asking (It's not possible to lie in a question, because it is a question)

I think the confusion stems from the fact you consider "to make money" a utility and I don't. Can we agree with that? Or have a missed something? And try and answer with decency if you are able. Stop with the insults, it's not a good look.
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Erm... there aren't any insults.

The utility, which you claim to understand but then try to ridicule as being irrelevant just because it is El Salvador shows your unwillingness to accept your ignorance. El Salvador recognise it as a currency therefore it is a currency, that point was raised just to show you that it is no longer debatable. It shows that it has utility even if it doesn't have utility to you, like any other currency recognised by any other county anywhere in the world. Bitcoin is a decentralised cross-border currency. El Salvador have adopted it and any other country could as well but the beauty of a currency that is cross-border and not controlled by a country is that it doesn't have to be recognised as legal tender. Anyone in any country can use it as a payment mechanism. There are many countries where people pay in USD despite it not being legal tender in that country and Bitcoin is, and can be, the same.

There is no confusion on my part. "To make money" is a utility. It is the reason most things exist. Even so, making money is not the utility of bitcoin. Businesses make, produce, sell, provide services etc to make money. Stop pretending you are not part of the capitalist system. 1 share of Tesla or Apple do not do anything but make someone money. All the utility of the company comes from the workers, the materials and the processes. All the shares do is generate profit for shareholders. Nobody invests in them for any other reason.

Bitcoin just exists. It doesn't have a motive. It is just maths. It doesn't aim to make money. All you are seeing happening is the value of bitcoin goes up in relation to USD because more people are recognising the utility and there is a finite amount. The value of USD has fallen in relation to everything so it's no surprise that it has fallen against bitcoin as well. At some point it will reach an equilibrium where the supply and demand for bitcoin is stable and then it will steadily increase in value at the rate of inflation or in reality it will maintain it's value as other currencies devalue.

Until you can have a conversation in good faith and/or comprehend what bitcoin is, because you've so far proven yourself either incapable or unwilling to do so, then it is pointless you making the same non-statements.
 
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