Astra Zeneca vaccine death in Tenerife. article copied from Canarian Weekly newspaper

[bear66]

30 cases in 18 million is actually less than the general rate of aneurysms without a vaccine.

It pays to have it, it’s as simple as that. Ignore the nonsense.

The death rate is 45 in a million of under 45s who have died of covid. Germany, who gave AZ to working age (younger) health workers, had 3.3 deaths in a million from the vaccine. (I have two NHS hospital worker younger relatives who were give the Pfizer jab.) That isn't a huge difference to take a risk when there are alternative vaccines. The Europeans are going to announce their views tomorrow and the UK MHRA possibly by next Tuesday. I think they'll balance risk and the UK may say don't give it to under 30s who have very low covid death rates, and give them Moderna instead.

 

[bear66]

I wonder by what “date” we will be able to say whether or not we have swerved this third wave?

The Newsnight report seemed to suggest not if but how big when everything opens up in July, a situation we haven't been in since March 2020. I hope they're wrong but their best estimate was a peak of 10000 hospitalisations.

 

[Randy]

The Newsnight report seemed to suggest not if but how big when everything opens up in July, a situation we haven't been in since March 2020. I hope they're wrong but their best estimate was a peak of 10000 hospitalisations.

Why would there be a peak of massive numbers when people will be vaccinated compared to last summer?

Fear mongering modelling bull****.

 

[atypical_boro]

The Newsnight report seemed to suggest not if but how big when everything opens up in July, a situation we haven't been in since March 2020. I hope they're wrong but their best estimate was a peak of 10000 hospitalisations.

Although that is only a quarter of the peak of the second wave. I would imagine that means a worst case of 200-300 deaths a day? Just guessing.

 

[bear66]

Although that is only a quarter of the peak of the second wave. I would imagine that means a worst case of 200-300 deaths a day? Just guessing.

Hopefully much less with the vulnerable vaccinated. Perhaps 10% of that figure (which had higher and lower probability curves)

 

[Liamo]

Even the UK (MHRA) is belatedly saying that this rare disease isn't seen in Pfizer vaccinated people.

Maybe in the UK - but it doesn't seem to be the case in the US.

According to a New York Times article published in February this year.

More than 31 million people in the United States have received at least one dose, and 36 similar cases [of thrombocytopenia] had been reported to the government’s Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, VAERS, by the end of January. The cases involved either the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccine.

Thrombocytopenia and Covid vaccines

The most notable case of this was the Florida doctor who died of thrombocytopenia after receiving the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.

[He] went to the hospital three days after getting his first dose of Pfizer's mRNA injection after noticing petechiae on his hands and feet, Neckelmann wrote on Facebook. He was admitted to the emergency room, where his blood test showed his platelet count at zero, and he was diagnosed with ITP [immune thrombocytopenia].

Officials Investigate Physician's Death After COVID Vaccination

 

[Liamo]

As far as I can see all the vaccines work in different ways. Stopping a group getting the AZ vaccine isn't stopping them getting a vaccinr

It depends on what you mean by "different ways." All the vaccines currently in use in the UK do almost exactly the same thing at the cellular level.

They all introduce a piece of genetic code, encased in a lipid membrane, that binds with the cells and prompts then to produce copies of the coronavirus spike protein.

The only real difference is the makeup of the lipid membrane. In the case of the mRNA vaccines it's an artificially produced fatty envelope - for the viral vector vaccines (like AZ) it's the fatty envelope of a non-replicating adenovirus.

Here are two graphics from the Washington Post showing how mRNA vaccines and viral vector vaccines work.

It's notable that apart from the first step, the graphics are identical.

 

[Liamo]

One interesting (though somewhat esoteric) difference is that the Pfizer, Moderna, Johnson & Johnson and Novavax vaccines use the prefusion form of the spike protein, while the AstraZeneca vaccine uses the postfusion form (the spike protein changes shape after fusing with human cells).

This is discussed in the article below:

The tiny tweak behind COVID-19 vaccines

One thing the article points out is that since you want to stop the virus from fusing with cells in the first place, it's probably better to train the immune system to recognise the prefusion rather than the postfusion form and this might lead to a safer and stronger immune response.

 

[Jonny_Rondos_Disco_pants]

Answering an earlier

Do you think they are right to stop the trial of the vaccine on children who have no risk of dying from Covid?

Or is that nonsense as well?

it’s not just about the risk of death. 43000 children are suffering from long covid symptoms in the UK. Some may end up having life long complications. I’d say that if vaccines stop long covid or massively reduce long covid, they are worth it.

 

[Andy_W]

The death rate is 45 in a million of under 45s who have died of covid. Germany had 3.3 deaths in a million from the vaccine.

Without looking into these numbers in any great detail, so Covid is 15 times more risk than the AZ vaccine, those that died from the vaccine may not have actually died from the vaccine and those that have the vaccine can't spread the vaccine risk, or the covid risk it, yet Covid obviously can.
Every 1 person taking the vaccine, could prevent around 4 people from catching the virus, based on an R of 0.8. So that's 5 people with 45 in a million chance, from one preventable infection.

That to me, is absolutely zero reasoning to pause or investigate anything with public knowledge unless there was already a massive supply of other vaccines immediately available and ready to go in peoples arms, which outweighs demand (the world is nowhere near that level).

Effectively, until something better can replace it, and for the same cost, keep making, and keep jabbing, as fast as possible, even if it's only to volunteers.

I volunteer myself and every one of my family.

 

[bear66]

Without looking into these numbers in any great detail, so Covid is 15 times more risk than the AZ vaccine, those that died from the vaccine may not have actually died from the vaccine and those that have the vaccine can't spread the vaccine risk, or the covid risk it, yet Covid obviously can.
Every 1 person taking the vaccine, could prevent around 4 people from catching the virus, based on an R of 0.8. So that's 5 people with 45 in a million chance, from one preventable infection.

That to me, is absolutely zero reasoning to pause or investigate anything with public knowledge unless there was already a massive supply of other vaccines immediately available and ready to go in peoples arms, which outweighs demand (the world is nowhere near that level).

Effectively, until something better can replace it, and for the same cost, keep making, and keep jabbing, as fast as possible, even if it's only to volunteers.

I volunteer myself and every one of my family.

They're different age groups and if there is a gender bias, that halves the difference. By age 30 the difference may totally disappear which is why health researchers take this seriously. Better to have one vaccine of concern identified where there are alternatives rather than tar the whole vaccination proces

 

[Andy_W]

They're different age groups and if there is a gender bias, that halves the difference. By age 30 the difference may totally disappear which is why health researchers take this seriously. Better to have one vaccine of concern identified where there are alternatives rather than tar the whole vaccination proces

Ah ok, I wasn't sure if you were on about the same thing.

My point is that there are alternatives in theory, but not in reality, as they're not already made, approved and waiting in abundance or being made rapidly, even AZ itself does not fit these criteria, so no other can and AZ will get there first. Having a potential alternative in the future is great (obviously better), but it's not the future yet, it's now and the risk is more now than it would be in the future. Delaying a dose so someone has to wait for 3,6,9 months longer is completely bonkers. All that time they could be catching and spreading, and each on missed is four more covid cases (which is certainly more risk).

I could see a point if we had equal measures of Pfizer/ AZ, but we don't, and won't. I'm certainly not an expert but I can't see why an AZ vaccine would be more risk to someone younger than it would be to someone older unless it can do more damage to younger, healthier and fitter people, but I can see how it would be harder to detect in older folk, as they're more at risk of everything, or there's more risk of something else killing them first (and the hypothetical clotting not appearing). Also, more older folk have had the Pfizer jab, as that is what arrived first.

The other vaccines (Moderna, Johnsson, Novovax etc) are incomparable also, as they've not had the same use, same setting, same virus, same timeframe, not approved at the same time etc. They could all end up a lot more risk than AZ, even Pfizer could if people did enough digging.

Just take whatever is ready, whatever comes first, anything trialled and approved is better than nothing, whilst the risk of catching and transmission is high, this would even be more reason in Europe or the other areas not doing so well, compared to the UK.

 

[bear66]

Ah ok, I wasn't sure if you were on about the same thing.

My point is that there are alternatives in theory, but not in reality, as they're not already made, approved and waiting in abundance or being made rapidly, even AZ itself does not fit these criteria, so no other can and AZ will get there first. Having a potential alternative in the future is great (obviously better), but it's not the future yet, it's now and the risk is more now than it would be in the future. Delaying a dose so someone has to wait for 3,6,9 months longer is completely bonkers. All that time they could be catching and spreading, and each on missed is four more covid cases (which is certainly more risk).

I could see a point if we had equal measures of Pfizer/ AZ, but we don't, and won't. I'm certainly not an expert but I can't see why an AZ vaccine would be more risk to someone younger than it would be to someone older unless it can do more damage to younger, healthier and fitter people, but I can see how it would be harder to detect in older folk, as they're more at risk of everything, or there's more risk of something else killing them first (and the hypothetical clotting not appearing). Also, more older folk have had the Pfizer jab, as that is what arrived first.

The other vaccines (Moderna, Johnsson, Novovax etc) are incomparable also, as they've not had the same use, same setting, same virus, same timeframe, not approved at the same time etc. They could all end up a lot more risk than AZ, even Pfizer could if people did enough digging.

Just take whatever is ready, whatever comes first, anything trialled and approved is better than nothing, whilst the risk of catching and transmission is high, this would even be more reason in Europe or the other areas not doing so well, compared to the UK.

We seem to be running out of all vaccines with the report yesterday that it will be July before first dose vaccinations begin again!

The Liamo posts above raising concerns over Moderna and Pfizer as well are a bit concerning, but the morbidity seems a lot lower unless the true number of deaths aren't being disclosed.

This is going to be a long haul with current vaccines being the base for re-vaccinations so it's important to get the safety case right for next few years. AZ is going to become a go-to vaccination in the future with a low cost base and, if similar to annual flu vaccinations being primarily for the vulnerable, it's going to be safe for the vast majority of people.

 

[Laughing]

Ah ok, I wasn't sure if you were on about the same thing.

My point is that there are alternatives in theory, but not in reality, as they're not already made, approved and waiting in abundance or being made rapidly, even AZ itself does not fit these criteria, so no other can and AZ will get there first. Having a potential alternative in the future is great (obviously better), but it's not the future yet, it's now and the risk is more now than it would be in the future. Delaying a dose so someone has to wait for 3,6,9 months longer is completely bonkers. All that time they could be catching and spreading, and each on missed is four more covid cases (which is certainly more risk).

I could see a point if we had equal measures of Pfizer/ AZ, but we don't, and won't. I'm certainly not an expert but I can't see why an AZ vaccine would be more risk to someone younger than it would be to someone older unless it can do more damage to younger, healthier and fitter people, but I can see how it would be harder to detect in older folk, as they're more at risk of everything, or there's more risk of something else killing them first (and the hypothetical clotting not appearing). Also, more older folk have had the Pfizer jab, as that is what arrived first.

The other vaccines (Moderna, Johnsson, Novovax etc) are incomparable also, as they've not had the same use, same setting, same virus, same timeframe, not approved at the same time etc. They could all end up a lot more risk than AZ, even Pfizer could if people did enough digging.

Just take whatever is ready, whatever comes first, anything trialled and approved is better than nothing, whilst the risk of catching and transmission is high, this would even be more reason in Europe or the other areas not doing so well, compared to the UK.

Almost certainly the hippocratic oath would stop a doctor administering a vaccine where it could potentially kill someone and that danger is know. Firstly do no harm.

 

[bear66]

Almost certainly the hippocratic oath would stop a doctor administering a vaccine where it could potentially kill someone and that danger is know. Firstly do no harm.

That seems to be the case from all the research and medical pundits interviewed over the past 24 hours. Even Newsnight failed to find a 'storm in a tea cup' interviewee.

 

[Jedi boro]

Maybe in the UK - but it doesn't seem to be the case in the US.

According to a New York Times article published in February this year.


Thrombocytopenia and Covid vaccines

The most notable case of this was the Florida doctor who died of thrombocytopenia after receiving the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine.



Officials Investigate Physician's Death After COVID Vaccination

This has been my point as I understand the issue being raised but it the overwhelming negativity from Eu leaders right from the off to the AZ variant when as you say Pfizer has had similar if not more issues and yet nothing is said about this.

people need to stop politicising this issue esp as the AZ vaccine is the one that is more likely to be the ones used in Africa and the third world so demonising this as a poor choice is not the wisest thing to to do.

 

[zzzzz]

Paracetemol Deaths

Wonder how it compares to the AZ death rate?
Would 18 million people, almost a third of the population, have taken paracetemol during the same period that the AZ vacine was administered?
As a wild guess I doubt it. And there were 211 deaths relating to Paracetemol in the last year for stats which was 2019.
Compare that with the AZ numbers. Nobody is shouting for an enquiry into Paracetemol.

 

[Laughing]

That seems to be the case from all the research and medical pundits interviewed over the past 24 hours. Even Newsnight failed to find a 'storm in a tea cup' interviewee.

Not really been following this until recently as I assumed the whole thing would be explained away by pure coincidence and not a meaningful one at that.

It will be interesting to see how this develops.

 

[Laughing]

Paracetemol Deaths

Wonder how it compares to the AZ death rate?
Would 18 million people, almost a third of the population, have taken paracetemol during the same period that the AZ vacine was administered?
As a wild guess I doubt it. And there were 211 deaths relating to Paracetemol in the last year for stats which was 2019.
Compare that with the AZ numbers. Nobody is shouting for an enquiry into Paracetemol.

Paracetamol is self administered zzzzzzz. That's the difference.

 

[zzzzz]

Paracetamol is self administered zzzzzzz. That's the difference.

Eh? It's still a drug whether it's self administered or not.
Those numbers include people that did not OD.
And don't forget that the AZ numbers are taken from the oldest 3rd of the population, generally the weakest.

The point I'm making, again, is that the numbers badly affected by the AZ jab are so tiny they shouldn't make a jot of difference to whether people take the jab or not and people should refrain from scaremongering by raising doubt about it's safety........ a link to a fat woman popping her clogs in the Canaries is a great example.