NYboro
Well-known member
With this "deal" it might come sooner than we thought possible.
Are you in favour of the latest deal with the EU ?
- Thread starter Lottowyn
- Start date
SmallTown
Well-known member
Agreed. The damage will probably have already been done. I just can’t sit idly by whilst my country gets so badly damaged
Linthorpe_Exile
Well-known member
I haven't read up on the "deal" as yet. Acknowledgements to "BenCaute" a poster on the Guardian's website who posted this:
"
Some thoughts:
A) This is a trade in goods agreement with the EU. It is not an agreement on anything else with any of the Member States. E.g. it doesn't cover freedom of establishment, and there is nothing stopping Denmark for example outlawing UK companies (they tried this before but the ECJ struck it down.
B) To underline that point, outside of the specific ambit of this agreement, even if the EU wants to play fair, any one of the 26 states can unilaterally damage UK interests by passing discriminatory laws. This is a real issue - the EU case law is full of attempts to do this which the ECJ protected the UK from.
C) Financial services looks like a mess. I fully expect an EU grab on euro clearing within 12 months.
D) Notice how the little (British) guy has been stuffed. The agreement recreates 2/3rds of the Council of Ministers level apparatus, from the UK perspective (only) centralising power in No.10; the most obvious loss is that British people lose all rights to make claims about what goes on.
E) The Agreement therefore amounts to rule by unelected bureaucrat at the expense of individual rights. Nice one Brexiters.
F) The fishermen have served their purpose and were suitably thrown overboard: an unwanted catch.
G) The ECJ is still there, not just in NI and on EU programmes, but no doubt will continue to 'assist' with interpretation on the EU side. Fundamental Rights and all that.
F) We have swapped free access for what we import (goods), for no access for what we export (services).
G) Leaving Erasmus was purely ideological. Replacing it with Turing is daft. Unis already have the links they are going to have with RoW. Turing is not going to magic up new Hong Kong universities.
H) Fundamentally, the agreement ostensibly represents a deal between equals, reflecting Britain's view that it somehow is the EU's equal. It is not; it is a bit-player. The sheer economic power of the EU will mean that in practice the EU will do what it wants and the UK will have to lump it.
I) Thank you Brexiters. You have secured fewer individual rights, less sovereignty, more unelected bureaucrats, all as part of a fiendishly complex trade structure that will see Britain tootling off to Brussels every 2 months to receive instructions. That's what you won. Get over it."
2021 is going to be interesting....
"
Some thoughts:
A) This is a trade in goods agreement with the EU. It is not an agreement on anything else with any of the Member States. E.g. it doesn't cover freedom of establishment, and there is nothing stopping Denmark for example outlawing UK companies (they tried this before but the ECJ struck it down.
B) To underline that point, outside of the specific ambit of this agreement, even if the EU wants to play fair, any one of the 26 states can unilaterally damage UK interests by passing discriminatory laws. This is a real issue - the EU case law is full of attempts to do this which the ECJ protected the UK from.
C) Financial services looks like a mess. I fully expect an EU grab on euro clearing within 12 months.
D) Notice how the little (British) guy has been stuffed. The agreement recreates 2/3rds of the Council of Ministers level apparatus, from the UK perspective (only) centralising power in No.10; the most obvious loss is that British people lose all rights to make claims about what goes on.
E) The Agreement therefore amounts to rule by unelected bureaucrat at the expense of individual rights. Nice one Brexiters.
F) The fishermen have served their purpose and were suitably thrown overboard: an unwanted catch.
G) The ECJ is still there, not just in NI and on EU programmes, but no doubt will continue to 'assist' with interpretation on the EU side. Fundamental Rights and all that.
F) We have swapped free access for what we import (goods), for no access for what we export (services).
G) Leaving Erasmus was purely ideological. Replacing it with Turing is daft. Unis already have the links they are going to have with RoW. Turing is not going to magic up new Hong Kong universities.
H) Fundamentally, the agreement ostensibly represents a deal between equals, reflecting Britain's view that it somehow is the EU's equal. It is not; it is a bit-player. The sheer economic power of the EU will mean that in practice the EU will do what it wants and the UK will have to lump it.
I) Thank you Brexiters. You have secured fewer individual rights, less sovereignty, more unelected bureaucrats, all as part of a fiendishly complex trade structure that will see Britain tootling off to Brussels every 2 months to receive instructions. That's what you won. Get over it."
2021 is going to be interesting....
Keelo
Well-known member
Johnson " celebrating getting brexit done" as if hed secured World peace against all the odds...A celebration thats made us poorer, less free and healed nothing..as it unfolds some will come to realise what a sack of spanners this has all been and the mad thing is, some are celebrating it..total and utter madness!!!
Jimstewart
Well-known member
Possibly. I doubt it mind another referendum would presumably need to happen and after the events of the last four and a half years I’m not sure what the appetite for that would be. I’ve long since given up on second guessing the future so you could well be correct.
Piccadilly Day Tripper
Well-known member
To be fair, at the start of the referendum campaigning back in 2015 the North East of England was one of the poorest, most deprived and neglected areas in the EU. As of Jan 1st, that will no longer be the case.
Hicktonpen10
Well-known member
Cannot see any politician this side of 2050 ever suggesting a Referendum
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
There is no choice but for many years Brexiters complained about the EU until eventually they got their vote so they will have to now accept criticism at every turn from Remainers who think it was a stupid move.
Jimstewart
Well-known member
Quite possibly. The only party I can see going into the next election on a ticket to rejoin would be the Lib Dem’s and they have less chance of running the country outside of a coalition than I do of managing the Boro.
Labour needs its red wall back and given what happened at the last election It won’t get it campaigning to rejoin.
Another referendum on Europe seems a million miles away to me.
Jimstewart
Well-known member
I think brexiters have a fairly thick skin when it comes to getting stick from remainers. It’s been coming thick and fast since June 2016 . Thick, gammon, racist even old. It didn’t work a treat at the last election though and we’ve ended up with the an old Etonian stand up comic running the country which presumably just rubbed salt into the wounds of most remainers.
r00fie1
Well-known member
The Long Read: [Edited].
You may find this more interesting than the pseudo - liberal Guardian.
Considering Germany and France are the main drivers of the European Union [my emphasis]; their perspective is important in how they see GB Plc exit from the E.U.
This article, dated 25th December, from Der Spiegel , with candor and uninhibited frankness`, puts Brexit, GB and Boris Johnson firmly in their place.
www.spiegel.de
25.12.2020, 12.18 Uhr
"For the British, it's just the beginning". A comment by Markus Becker.
The UK and the EU have reached a deal after four chaotic years.
This ends a chapter of the saga in a sensible way - because the British never really saw themselves as part of the EU.
No, the drama between Britain and the European continent is not over.
Brexit was just another act that ended at the last minute with the conclusion of a trade deal. It is a victory of reason.
Since the British referendum in 2016, one thing has been heard time and again: Brexit is insane, an unnecessary act of self-mutilation that will weaken both the UK and the EU politically and economically.
But that would only be correct without any compromises if this kingdom was a country that feels not only part of Europe but also of the European Union. But that was never really the case.
The British have always viewed the EU more as a free trade area.
The goal of political unification was never theirs.
Winston Churchill was a staunch supporter of European integration, but saw his own country only as a partner and not as part of such a Europe. Little has changed about that to this day.
When the British joined the European Economic Community in 1973, they did so primarily to benefit from its borderless trade.
Another goal was, of course, to be able to slow down the emerging political power bloc if necessary - which could best be done from within.
Ironically, this was also one of the main arguments of the so-called pro-Europeans in London: Many of them did not want to keep their country in the EU because they were great friends of the EU, but because they rightly feared for British influence.
The fact that the UK has given up this influence is one of the few irrational aspects of Brexit, at least from a British perspective.
This only applies to a limited extent to the disclosure of the economic advantages of EU membership.
Because participation in free trade in the EU has always been linked to the freedom of every EU citizen to live and work anywhere in the EU.
Brussels vehemently defended this in the negotiations, precisely because the EU is more than just a free trade area.
The London negotiators have never understood what speaks volumes about the relationship of most British politicians to the EU.
For them, Brexit was ultimately a cost-benefit analysis: On the one hand there were the economic advantages of EU membership, on the other hand the rising political costs of immigration from the EU in an increasingly xenophobic Great Britain.
More about Brexit For large parts of the British people, however, Brexit was above all an emotional decision, it was the choice between a perceived independence and a perceived Babylonian captivity in the EU - combined with the conviction that a return to independence means a return to a former nationality Shine meant.
A political actor like Boris Johnson knew this and used it to fulfill his lifelong dream of becoming British Prime Minister.
For many politicians and citizens of Great Britain, however, the feeling of not being a European among many other Europeans is part of their self-image.
And they don't consider Great Britain just another European country among many, but rather a special or even chosen one.
Of course, not all Britons think that way.
But unfortunately they are not the ones who set the tone in Britain today.
That is why your country's exit from the EU is not unreasonable.
The EU is freer to take the steps it has to take in order to assert itself in a globalized world between the USA and China - because it is already very late for that.
Britain, on the other hand, may need Brexit in order to feel how small the supporting role it will play on this world stage really is.
Spain, France, the Netherlands, Portugal and Germany have already recognized that the former Belgian Foreign Minister Paul-Henri Spaak was right: there are small countries in Europe and those that have not yet realized that they are small.
One day the British will also realize that their country may be special, but it's not that big. And maybe then they will even return. It would be a good day for the EU.
You may find this more interesting than the pseudo - liberal Guardian.
Considering Germany and France are the main drivers of the European Union [my emphasis]; their perspective is important in how they see GB Plc exit from the E.U.
This article, dated 25th December, from Der Spiegel , with candor and uninhibited frankness`, puts Brexit, GB and Boris Johnson firmly in their place.
Brexit-Deal: Für die Briten ist es erst der Anfang - Kommentar
Großbritannien und die EU haben sich nach vier chaotischen Jahren auf einen Deal geeinigt. Damit endet ein Kapitel der Saga auf vernünftige Art – denn die Briten haben sich nie wirklich als Teil der EU gesehen.
www.spiegel.de
"For the British, it's just the beginning". A comment by Markus Becker.
The UK and the EU have reached a deal after four chaotic years.
This ends a chapter of the saga in a sensible way - because the British never really saw themselves as part of the EU.
No, the drama between Britain and the European continent is not over.
Brexit was just another act that ended at the last minute with the conclusion of a trade deal. It is a victory of reason.
Since the British referendum in 2016, one thing has been heard time and again: Brexit is insane, an unnecessary act of self-mutilation that will weaken both the UK and the EU politically and economically.
But that would only be correct without any compromises if this kingdom was a country that feels not only part of Europe but also of the European Union. But that was never really the case.
The British have always viewed the EU more as a free trade area.
The goal of political unification was never theirs.
Winston Churchill was a staunch supporter of European integration, but saw his own country only as a partner and not as part of such a Europe. Little has changed about that to this day.
When the British joined the European Economic Community in 1973, they did so primarily to benefit from its borderless trade.
Another goal was, of course, to be able to slow down the emerging political power bloc if necessary - which could best be done from within.
Ironically, this was also one of the main arguments of the so-called pro-Europeans in London: Many of them did not want to keep their country in the EU because they were great friends of the EU, but because they rightly feared for British influence.
The fact that the UK has given up this influence is one of the few irrational aspects of Brexit, at least from a British perspective.
This only applies to a limited extent to the disclosure of the economic advantages of EU membership.
Because participation in free trade in the EU has always been linked to the freedom of every EU citizen to live and work anywhere in the EU.
Brussels vehemently defended this in the negotiations, precisely because the EU is more than just a free trade area.
The London negotiators have never understood what speaks volumes about the relationship of most British politicians to the EU.
For them, Brexit was ultimately a cost-benefit analysis: On the one hand there were the economic advantages of EU membership, on the other hand the rising political costs of immigration from the EU in an increasingly xenophobic Great Britain.
More about Brexit For large parts of the British people, however, Brexit was above all an emotional decision, it was the choice between a perceived independence and a perceived Babylonian captivity in the EU - combined with the conviction that a return to independence means a return to a former nationality Shine meant.
A political actor like Boris Johnson knew this and used it to fulfill his lifelong dream of becoming British Prime Minister.
For many politicians and citizens of Great Britain, however, the feeling of not being a European among many other Europeans is part of their self-image.
And they don't consider Great Britain just another European country among many, but rather a special or even chosen one.
Of course, not all Britons think that way.
But unfortunately they are not the ones who set the tone in Britain today.
That is why your country's exit from the EU is not unreasonable.
The EU is freer to take the steps it has to take in order to assert itself in a globalized world between the USA and China - because it is already very late for that.
Britain, on the other hand, may need Brexit in order to feel how small the supporting role it will play on this world stage really is.
Spain, France, the Netherlands, Portugal and Germany have already recognized that the former Belgian Foreign Minister Paul-Henri Spaak was right: there are small countries in Europe and those that have not yet realized that they are small.
One day the British will also realize that their country may be special, but it's not that big. And maybe then they will even return. It would be a good day for the EU.
Attachments
Last edited:
Hicktonpen10
Well-known member
The Long Read: [Edited].
You may find this more interesting than the pseudo - liberal Guardian.
Considering Germany and France are the main drivers of the European Union [my emphasis]; their perspective is important in how they see GB Plc exit from the E.U.
This article, dated 25th December, from Der Spiegel , with candor and uninhibited journalise`, puts Brexit, GB and Boris Johnson firmly in their place.
25.12.2020, 12.18 UhrBrexit-Deal: Für die Briten ist es erst der Anfang - Kommentar
Großbritannien und die EU haben sich nach vier chaotischen Jahren auf einen Deal geeinigt. Damit endet ein Kapitel der Saga auf vernünftige Art – denn die Briten haben sich nie wirklich als Teil der EU gesehen.
"For the British, it's just the beginning". A comment by Markus Becker.
The UK and the EU have reached a deal after four chaotic years.
This ends a chapter of the saga in a sensible way - because the British never really saw themselves as part of the EU.
No, the drama between Britain and the European continent is not over.
View attachment 11270
Brexit was just another act that ended at the last minute with the conclusion of a trade deal. It is a victory of reason.
Since the British referendum in 2016, one thing has been heard time and again: Brexit is insane, an unnecessary act of self-mutilation that will weaken both the UK and the EU politically and economically.
But that would only be correct without any compromises if this kingdom was a country that feels not only part of Europe but also of the European Union. But that was never really the case.
The British have always viewed the EU more as a free trade area.
The goal of political unification was never theirs.
View attachment 11271
Winston Churchill was a staunch supporter of European integration, but saw his own country only as a partner and not as part of such a Europe. Little has changed about that to this day.
When the British joined the European Economic Community in 1973, they did so primarily to benefit from its borderless trade.
Another goal was, of course, to be able to slow down the emerging political power bloc if necessary - which could best be done from within.
Ironically, this was also one of the main arguments of the so-called pro-Europeans in London: Many of them did not want to keep their country in the EU because they were great friends of the EU, but because they rightly feared for British influence.
The fact that the UK has given up this influence is one of the few irrational aspects of Brexit, at least from a British perspective.
This only applies to a limited extent to the disclosure of the economic advantages of EU membership.
Because participation in free trade in the EU has always been linked to the freedom of every EU citizen to live and work anywhere in the EU.
View attachment 11275
Brussels vehemently defended this in the negotiations, precisely because the EU is more than just a free trade area.
The London negotiators have never understood what speaks volumes about the relationship of most British politicians to the EU.
For them, Brexit was ultimately a cost-benefit analysis: On the one hand there were the economic advantages of EU membership, on the other hand the rising political costs of immigration from the EU in an increasingly xenophobic Great Britain.
More about Brexit For large parts of the British people, however, Brexit was above all an emotional decision, it was the choice between a perceived independence and a perceived Babylonian captivity in the EU - combined with the conviction that a return to independence means a return to a former nationality Shine meant.
A political actor like Boris Johnson knew this and used it to fulfill his lifelong dream of becoming British Prime Minister.
View attachment 11276
For many politicians and citizens of Great Britain, however, the feeling of not being a European among many other Europeans is part of their self-image.
View attachment 11273
And they don't consider Great Britain just another European country among many, but rather a special or even chosen one.
Of course, not all Britons think that way.
But unfortunately they are not the ones who set the tone in Britain today.
That is why your country's exit from the EU is not unreasonable.
The EU is freer to take the steps it has to take in order to assert itself in a globalized world between the USA and China - because it is already very late for that.
Britain, on the other hand, may need Brexit in order to feel how small the supporting role it will play on this world stage really is.
Spain, France, the Netherlands, Portugal and Germany have already recognized that the former Belgian Foreign Minister Paul-Henri Spaak was right: there are small countries in Europe and those that have not yet realized that they are small.
View attachment 11272
One day the British will also realize that their country may be special, but it's not that big. And maybe then they will even return. It would be a good day for the EU.
Chris_Boro
Well-known member
Prepare for a decade of everything that shows how much of a failure this deal is for the UK to be described as "teething problems".
*sigh*
*sigh*
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Parts of the North East are some of the poorest areas of the Europe, agreed.
At least a lot of people know this now and more seems to be happening to change things. The UK Government is having to face up to its needs to give more support to the so called left behind regions. The EU regional funds were useful but felt like sticking plasters on major wounds. The policy of investing in the South East to generate wealth, some of which to be given to the left behind areas as welfare benefits could not continue.
In 2015 the Redcar Steel works closed with upto 8000 good quality jobs gone and there was a week of protest then several weeks of the media finding where Redcar was and isn't it sad. then gradually it was becoming forgotten. The 2016 Brexit Vote made people in places like Richmond upon Thames realise people were suffering and living poorer lives than in the past and were justifiably angry in certain areas of the UK well away from theirs.
At least a lot of people know this now and more seems to be happening to change things. The UK Government is having to face up to its needs to give more support to the so called left behind regions. The EU regional funds were useful but felt like sticking plasters on major wounds. The policy of investing in the South East to generate wealth, some of which to be given to the left behind areas as welfare benefits could not continue.
In 2015 the Redcar Steel works closed with upto 8000 good quality jobs gone and there was a week of protest then several weeks of the media finding where Redcar was and isn't it sad. then gradually it was becoming forgotten. The 2016 Brexit Vote made people in places like Richmond upon Thames realise people were suffering and living poorer lives than in the past and were justifiably angry in certain areas of the UK well away from theirs.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Fair comment.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
That’s a good point and it means the Tories can no longer blame the EU for the decline of the UK. It gave Labour a different message which Corbyn recognised but couldn’t quite get over the line in the 2017 election.
Laughing
Well-known member
Interesting article Roofie. I can only speak from my perspective and the EU citizens I work closely with day to day. They think we are a bit barmy, but never mention the British imperialistic attitude that still exists today to a certain extent.
It isn't even solely the UK, look at the USA as a great example of a country having notions about itself that just don't stand up to scrutiny under any metric you care to use.
It isn't even solely the UK, look at the USA as a great example of a country having notions about itself that just don't stand up to scrutiny under any metric you care to use.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
I still think the big driver for the Brexit vote was uncontrolled immigration, not necessarily racism, but concern about our country being overloaded without any adjustment or plan to manage the strain on the nhs, the schools, housing or the transport network.
But one thing Covid has taught us is that politicians are not practical people. They are essentially salesmen and women for big public policy ideas, not people who know how to make things work on the ground.
SmallTown
Well-known member
You honestly haven’t understood the deal have you? Once it hits how badly the country is being affected people will want to do something about it.