Are the government, deliberately, setting man against man?

[Cuthbert]

I understand that it's frustrating. I don't necessarily buy the fact that most ICU cases are unvaccinated but that is by the by. Covid aside, I still believe my point stands. I appreciate that some won't agree, which is why I ask the question.

In the last week, I've seen three doctors on TV (actually one was the nurse in charge of a Covid ward) saying that the vast majority of cases in their hospitals were unvaccinated) - I see no reason not to believe them. (That was my point about doctors saying it). However, I accept that it may not be the picture nationally.

 

[Expat Smoggie]

Am I alone in thinking that the goverrnment are deliberately setting us against each other, with their messaging. It is not unknown that the right wing press, and government are in each others pockets. I wonder what their endgame is? Is it to distract us? Or is it just the difficult set of circumstances we find ourselves in, that make us fight and argue? In any event, it woill suites Johnson, his government, and the wider party, to create a target for you and I to blame. It, absoloutley, deflects blame from governance and on to our brothers and sisters.

Are we all idiots for falling for this? Blaming those not vaccinated, or wearing masks? Blaming those who choose to follow "the science". Are we not all after the same outcome? The least number of deaths, covid and non covid, the least amount of misery, the most amount of worthwhile lives that are possible?

It has become, in my opinion, just following your "team" and is having an effect, deliberate or otherwise, of distracting us from the major issues we face today, and I do not believe for a moment that covid is the major issue.

Falling, silently into a dictatorship. Allowing future generations to line healthcare pockets to maintain life. And I am absoloutely certain that this latter issue, will cost more lives in the UK than covid ever will. Withdrawing our basic human rights. Removing the right to protest. Removing the right to live here, even if you have a right to do so today.

I am becoming quickly dischuffed with borad members who care more about "proving a point" than actually opening their eyes and see what is happening. We are, as nation, to steal a quote from a few years ago, sleep walking into a third world country.

It's amazing the tactics that have been used by many governments around the world to subdue the masses, but they've been aided and abetted by a willing media who've done their level best to ensure that the scare mongering has been maintained or perhaps increased. I have an aunt who is so scared she won't leave her house, she has a mask on 24x7, sleeps in a separate room from her partner-- who says she believes 100 percent everything that the China media releases on Covid. Meanwhile her partner can't go near her, as he gets anxiety because the situation in his household and has already been to the emergency ward several times for anxiety attacks caused by this whole zany situation.

 

[Laughing]

It's amazing the tactics that have been used by many governments around the world to subdue the masses, but they've been aided and abetted by a willing media who've done their level best to ensure that the scare mongering has been maintained or perhaps increased. I have an aunt who is so scared she won't leave her house, she has a mask on 24x7, sleeps in a separate room from her partner-- who says she believes 100 percent everything that the China media releases on Covid. Meanwhile her partner can't go near her, as he gets anxiety because the situation in his household and has already been to the emergency ward several times for anxiety attacks caused by this whole zany situation.

That it's one of the hidden costs of the current situation we find ourselves in. I feel for your mum.

 

[br14]

Labour/Tory - Brexit/Remain - Vaccinated/Unjabbed

For interest Carnegie Mellon University in the US ran a study of vaccinated versus unvaccinated and came up with some findings that, in a US context, confirm part of what you say.

The preprint is here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1

Quote: "Particularly hesitant subgroups include Native American and Multi-racial groups of all ages, and White and Blacks adults <35 years; adults with ≤high school education or PhDs;"

So ethnic minorities, the young (who are in general not that badly affected by Covid-19), and PhD's are the most difficult to persuade to accept vaccines in the USA. I imagine each group has their own reasons for not trusting authorities.

 

[Ingleby_Flash]

In the last week, I've seen three doctors on TV (actually one was the nurse in charge of a Covid ward) saying that the vast majority of cases in their hospitals were unvaccinated) - I see no reason not to believe them. (That was my point about doctors saying it). However, I accept that it may not be the picture nationally.

Sisters work in JC and NT and they reflect that at least 90% are unvaccinated, couple of weeks ago in JC it was 100%

 

[br14]

saying that the vast majority of cases in their hospitals were unvaccinated

I also found that interesting. But the stats are available:

At the linked web page below, select the "COVID-19 Report" link. A PDF will be downloaded. Page 47 has the data you want (the report has loads of other interesting data).

ICNARC – Reports

ICNARC - Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre. Quality data for quality care.

www.icnarc.org

In total during the period from May 1st to November 15th the totals are: Unvaccinated: 5065 - Vaccinated: 3528

So majority yes - but not an overwhelming majority (and in some stats the unvaccinated includes one shot recipients in the first 21 days - not sure about the ICNARC report).

What is odd about the above is that the number of deaths among the vaccinated is so much higher - so many more people are vaccinated. According to the latest surveillance report from UKHSA there were 820 deaths among the unvaccinated and 3104 among the vaccinated during the four week period that ended December 12th.

So either the unvaccinated are recovering better from Covid-19 (possible since the majority are younger), or many vaccinated people are testing positive but dying of some other condition in care homes etc. Just goes to show you have to be careful with statistics.

 

[Soutra]

So 85% of the populace is vaxed but 70% of the people in hospital with Covid are not.

There's a correlation here.

 

[Cuthbert]

I also found that interesting. But the stats are available:

At the linked web page below, select the "COVID-19 Report" link. A PDF will be downloaded. Page 47 has the data you want (the report has loads of other interesting data).

ICNARC – Reports

ICNARC - Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre. Quality data for quality care.

www.icnarc.org

In total during the period from May 1st to November 15th the totals are: Unvaccinated: 5065 - Vaccinated: 3528

So majority yes - but not an overwhelming majority (and in some stats the unvaccinated includes one shot recipients in the first 21 days - not sure about the ICNARC report).

What is odd about the above is that the number of deaths among the vaccinated is so much higher - so many more people are vaccinated. According to the latest surveillance report from UKHSA there were 820 deaths among the unvaccinated and 3104 among the vaccinated during the four week period that ended December 12th.

So either the unvaccinated are recovering better from Covid-19 (possible since the majority are younger), or many vaccinated people are testing positive but dying of some other condition in care homes etc. Just goes to show you have to be careful with statistics.

Thank you for the links.

I suppose that if the data is from 1st May to 15th Nov, during that time more and more people were receiving their vaccines (May was still relatively early on). I suppose it's not impossible that in the last 5 weeks since 15th Nov (and Omicron), and with the booster programme factored in, the percentage of unvaccinated in hospital now might be very much higher.

I guess we'll have to wait for the official figures that apply currently.

 

[br14]

the percentage of unvaccinated in hospital now might be very much higher.

Possibly, but it's misleading data. The number of vaccinated persons dying at the moment is almost 4 times the unvaccinated deaths. By far the majority of unvaccinated are under 40 so far less likely to die even if they get sick (and clearly some do), and the converse is true for vaccinated persons - most are older. But the data suggests that people over 73 are not being treated in hospital (assuming I've read the report correctly) which is a bit odd. The numbers aren't crazy so it can't be because there are no hospital beds surely.

 

[FabioPorkpie]

What is odd about the above is that the number of deaths among the vaccinated is so much higher - so many more people are vaccinated. According to the latest surveillance report from UKHSA there were 820 deaths among the unvaccinated and 3104 among the vaccinated during the four week period that ended December 12th.

So either the unvaccinated are recovering better from Covid-19 (possible since the majority are younger), or many vaccinated people are testing positive but dying of some other condition in care homes etc. Just goes to show you have to be careful with statistics.

Come on man, that is really dangerous data manipulation or the highest order.
Of course there are more deaths amongst the vaccinated, given the overwhelming majority of the population are vaccinated. Why chose the absolute numbers instead of the rates per 100k, which are easily available? You are a smart guy. You know what you are doing.
Very very naughty.

 

[FabioPorkpie]

I appreciate this isn’t for the 4 week window you were talking about br14, but you get the general idea

Table 1: The age-standardised mortality rate (ASMR) for deaths involving COVID-19 was 96% lower for people who received the second dose at least 21 days ago compared to unvaccinated people between 1 January and 31 October
ASMRs per 100,000 person-years by vaccination status, England, deaths occurring between 1 January and 31 October 2021

Vaccination status	Deaths involving COVID-19	Non-COVID-19 deaths	All deaths
Unvaccinated	938.9 (928.5, 949.3)	1501.8 (1488.9, 1514.6)	2440.7 (2424.2, 2457.2)
Received only the first dose, less than 21 days ago	186 (180.1, 191.9)	609.3 (598.7, 619.8)	795.2 (783.1, 807.3)
Received only the first dose, at least 21 days ago	116.5 (113.8, 119.3)	1115.7 (1106.5, 1124.8)	1232.2 (1222.6, 1241.8)
Received the second dose, less than 21 days ago	7.3 (6.2, 8.3)	464.3 (455.5, 473.1)	471.6 (462.7, 480.4)
Received the second dose, at least 21 days ago	33.6 (32.8, 34.4)	816.9 (802, 831.8)	850.5 (835.6, 865.5)

 

[Stocko]

Social Media is to blame.

We live in a society today where anybody who disagrees with "us" is automatically classified as the worst possible example on the other side of the argument .. so, say you voted for Brexit : you're a thick ignorant racist .. say you have concerns about the vaccine : you're a raging loony anti-vax conspiracy theorist .. say you don't think trans women should compete in womens sport : you're transphobic and need cancelling .. say you don't agree with this kneeling malarky : again, you're automatically racist ..

Discussion and debate of the issues isn't important now, it's about "winning" without debate by shutting down the argument - "you disagree with me you're a <insert called name of choice>"

Not only social media,
mainstream media
Today, Boris dithers over COVID restrictions
Tomorrow, Boris introduces draconian measures

 

[Laughing]

For interest Carnegie Mellon University in the US ran a study of vaccinated versus unvaccinated and came up with some findings that, in a US context, confirm part of what you say.

The preprint is here: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1

Quote: "Particularly hesitant subgroups include Native American and Multi-racial groups of all ages, and White and Blacks adults <35 years; adults with ≤high school education or PhDs;"

So ethnic minorities, the young (who are in general not that badly affected by Covid-19), and PhD's are the most difficult to persuade to accept vaccines in the USA. I imagine each group has their own reasons for not trusting authorities.

That is interesting and not entirely what I would have expected.

 

[Muttley]

Possibly, but it's misleading data. The number of vaccinated persons dying at the moment is almost 4 times the unvaccinated deaths. By far the majority of unvaccinated are under 40 so far less likely to die even if they get sick (and clearly some do), and the converse is true for vaccinated persons - most are older. But the data suggests that people over 73 are not being treated in hospital (assuming I've read the report correctly) which is a bit odd. The numbers aren't crazy so it can't be because there are no hospital beds surely.

I'm getting heartily sick of your deliberate misinterpretation of statistics. It has gone beyond amusing stupidity it is now dangerously misinforming.

Learn how to use statistics properly or don't use them at all, you are promulgating dangerous lies, perhaps accidentally but it seems to be a pattern with your posts that when challenged you simply ignore those pointing out the way in which you are misrepresenting the data.

 

[zzzzz]

That is interesting and not entirely what I would have expected.

Entirely what I would have expected.
Ethnic minorities and multi-racial groups have a mistrust (understandable) of government, the under 35's are less concerned about the effects of the virus because they've been told it affects their age group less and the lower educated are perhaps less liekly to become informed.
Genuinely interested why this surprises you?