Anybody still think that we will turn this around?

[indeedido]

I'd don't buy into a lot of the current criticism, most of it is without any merit,

We have conceded more goals than anybody but Hull and won 2 matches.
There have been 3 horrendous performances already and we played well only at Stoke, where we still managed to throw an unlosable match away.
How you can say criticism has no merit is beyond me.

But we are looking good in possession Reading was the only game we haven't scored

We are not looking good in possession, we look laboured and ponderous.
We have 2 very good loanees in Muniz and Giles who provide the only quality we have seen this season.

This isn’t too dissimilar a group that went from 14th to 4th last season

We were 14th last season when Warnock left. We need to get 14 points from the next 8 matches to better that poor start.
Wilder bounced us to 5th by Boxing Day, then we ended the year at 5th after winning at Blackpool and 17 points from his first 8 matches.
We were 6th at the end of Jan and the close of the window after 23 points from Wilder's first 11 matches.

The problem then was we got 25 points from 18 matches, ending the season pretty much like we started it.
This has been 27 matches now since the Jan window closed where we have got 34 points.
It is 1.26 points per match.

We have played nothing like as well as we did at home to Forest that Boxing Day in the league since.

Of course it is possible to turn things round. It is possible to do a Forest. We do have a few good players. Our luck has to turn surely.
But realistically, the club did not back the manager with recruitment which has been poor since Scott came to the club. There is a daunting mountain to climb.

I know you know Viv that I desperately want us to do it as do the vast majority of posters on this board.

 

[Jonny Ingbar]

We tend to play it long when Fry plays, Wilder identified this earlier in the season, but he's playing while Lenihan is out. It has also coincided with Roberts starting in goal, who while a decent keeper isn't a sweeper keeper type even of the Joe Lumley standard. If we are to play it out from the back the keeper is a vital option and the players don't see Roberts as an option for retaining possession

It's a shame but Fry hasn't grasped his recent opportunity really - his defending has been poor at times and he doesnt move the ball quick enough or decisively enough.

And I'd have Steffen back in too - Roberts has done ok, without being really tested (although I though he should have saved the second on Tuesday) and his distribution isn't as good, which is an issue give the way we play.

 

[Nano]

xG is a tool but you can do further analysis. We give away low chance shots from around the box but the real chance of them scoring is higher because we don't close down. The xG is the average but a 20 yard shot with no pressure is very different to one with players hurriedly closing down.

We have a lot of chances so have a high xG but we mostly create a lot of low chance shots. We shoot from the edge of the area when there are several bodies in the way for example because we make bad decisions.

It would be interesting to see how many high xG chances we create. Cardiff had a lower xG than us but at least 2 of their 3 goals were "should score" chances. Their first goal was a one on one but only had an xG of 0.28. There's no way that was a 1 in 4 chance in that situation but there are plenty of chances that come from that area that would be more difficult to score.

 

[Jonny Ingbar]

How you can say criticism has no merit is beyond me.

I said a lot of the criticism, not all of it - the results are plain to see.

But it's bordered on silliness at times; suggesting the club is 'rotten to the core', that Scott is the problem, or Bauser, or Gibson, or that Wilders style, which has delivered success at several teams, will never work.

Some people don't have the ability to see things objectively.

 

[Andy_W]

It's a shame but Fry hasn't grasped his recent opportunity really - his defending has been poor at times and he doesnt move the ball quick enough or decisively enough.

And I'd have Steffen back in too - Roberts has done ok, without being really tested (although I though he should have saved the second on Tuesday) and his distribution isn't as good, which is an issue give the way we play.

Fry did well against Sunderland to be fair, as did the others, but Sunderland were not much of a test (compared to other sides we've played). Playing against their second-best Striker, 5-foot Roberts who goes missing and some midfielders who couldn't pass/ cross was not a clean sheet to get excited about.

Deffo need Steffen back, we look so much calmer, same with Lenhian. Thought Roberts did ok in the games he came in, but was launching it waaay to much in his earlier games, he got better since then, but shouldn't have conceded 3 against Cardiff, I would have hoped he could have saved two of those, but nothing to cry about, they were still good chances.

 

[the_holgate_roof]

Well if CW keeps doing the same thing as he did before and expecting a different result, isn’t that the definition of insanity?

 

[Jonny Ingbar]

Fry did well against Sunderland to be fair, as did the others, but Sunderland were not much of a test (compared to other sides we've played). Playing against their second-best Striker, 5-foot Roberts who goes missing and some midfielders who couldn't pass/ cross was not a clean sheet to get excited about.

Deffo need Steffen back, we look so much calmer, same with Lenhian. Thought Roberts did ok in the games he came in, but was launching it waaay to much in his earlier games, he got better since then, but shouldn't have conceded 3 against Cardiff, I would have hoped he could have saved two of those, but nothing to cry about, they were still good chances.

Yes, Fry was great against Sunderland, but Simms suited him in that it was a physical battle - I think he's less sure when players drop off a little and run at him. Gyorkores did it last season and he was all over the place. Same for the third goal on Tuesday.

 

[Alzi]

Yes, Fry was great against Sunderland, but Simms suited him in that it was a physical battle - I think he's less sure when players drop off a little and run at him. Gyorkores did it last season and he was all over the place. Same for the third goal on Tuesday.

He did well. I think Ross Stewart would have given him much more to think about though.

 

[Pear-Drops]

Q for all the 'negative' posters ......

Did you have the same opinion on everything last Tuesday morning, or has everything changed based on one performance (or rather, lack of ?)

 

[BoroMart]

We are not looking good in possession, we look laboured and ponderous.
We have 2 very good loanees in Muniz and Giles who provide the only quality we have seen this season.

We've created many chances and scored quite a few of them, we also have excellent possession, and bar 75 mins at Reading have done well in creating opportunities with it. Confidence has dropped a bit, and there have been moments of pondering and labouring, but the vast majority of our possession has been more purposeful as born out by our goals for and xG stats.

 

[Funky_Chicken]

No - there is clearly something wrong. Wilder is not happy at not getting all the players in he wanted, and the players probably aren’t over enamoured at some of the publicly made criticism of them from the manager. I don’t envision Wilder seeing out the season here tbh, and you have to blame Gibson for not backing the manager fully as was probably promised when he got here.

 

[indeedido]

5-foot Roberts who goes missing

Same lad scored a brace against a team they battered, but we lost tamely to.

There is so much confirmation bias here. Jonny, Mart, Andy and Viv are every bit as "guilty" of it as those they accuse of being negative.

I am not negative. I started this summer full of optimism and thinking the club was more aligned than for years, with a huge rebuild and huge opportunity.
We ARE only 9 matches in, but the facts are clear so far:
We miss good chances.
We get over-run in midfield.
We are conceding far too many goals.
We are getting a point a match.
We are above the relegation places on goal difference.

It is not solely the "fault" of ownership, recruitment, manager or players that we have had this start. It is the fault of all of them.
It is very real and will not just turn for us magically.

 

[Andy_W]

We've created many chances and scored quite a few of them, we also have excellent possession, and bar 75 mins at Reading have done well in creating opportunities with it. Confidence has dropped a bit, and there have been moments of pondering and labouring, but the vast majority of our possession has been more purposeful as born out by our goals for and xG stats.

I don't think Reading was that bad, we didn't create as much as other games, but they were all sat back in their half even before they scored, and offered zero threat. I wouldn't have expected them to score doing that, and they only got their goal from an offside/25-yard half volley, from a player who never scores. This let them sit back even more, which was a problem, but we changed it at HT/ 15 mins later and then we're right on top of them

 

[jonny_greenings_sock]

We certainly need an upturn in form.

Automatic is generally 2pts a game or 92pts over a season.

Playoffs around 75. For us to get 75 pts we need 66 pts over our next 37 games, just over 2pts a game, So essentially we need Top 2 form to finish 6th!

Yep - and this is why some of us were whinging like **** that we hadn’t brought in players for the start of the season, but got shouted down for bedwetting because the transfer window was still open for another five weeks

You can’t just write off the first 20% of the season. Every point counts the same.

 

[Andy_W]

Same lad scored a brace against a team they battered, but we lost tamely to.

There is so much confirmation bias here. Jonny, Mart, Andy and Viv are every bit as "guilty" of it as those they accuse of being negative.

I am not negative. I started this summer full of optimism and thinking the club was more aligned than for years, with a huge rebuild and huge opportunity.
We ARE only 9 matches in, but the facts are clear so far:
We miss good chances.
We get over-run in midfield.
We are conceding far too many goals.
We are getting a point a match.
We are above the relegation places on goal difference.

It is not solely the "fault" of ownership, recruitment, manager or players that we have had this start. It is the fault of all of them.
It is very real and will not just turn for us magically.

Sunderland battered them, but we were tame?



We created more than Sunderland did, and that was despite Reading actually trying to go after Sunderland, and cramming 11 behind the ball against us. Sunderland had plenty of opportunity to counterattack and make the most of space, largely through them getting ahead. Couple of good finishes by Roberts to be fair, but the defending was absolutely ****.

I'm not trying to be biased, I'm just trying to look at the cause, which led to the effect, and how this led to a result, not looking at the end result and making it up from there.

We do miss good chances, but have only really had one good forward for 3 games, and we need two good forwards for all games, hard to be critical about that. We should still be doing better mind.

I don't think we get over-run in midfield, although we do give it away too cheaply sometimes. The midfield is not great though, far from it.

We are conceding far too many goals, yep, through mistakes (expected), bad decisions (hard done by) and some rareties going in (hard done by)

We are getting a point a match, the above lead to this

We are above the relegation places on goal difference, we would be above by lots of points if more had went our way, or we had maybe got what we deserved/ finished better.

 

[indeedido]

Sunderland battered them, but we were tame?

View attachment 44461 View attachment 44460

We created more than Sunderland did, and that was despite Reading actually trying to go after Sunderland, and cramming 11 behind the ball against us. Sunderland had plenty of opportunity to counterattack and make the most of space, largely through them getting ahead. Couple of good finishes by Roberts to be fair, but the defending was absolutely ****.

I'm not trying to be biased, I'm just trying to look at the cause, which led to the effect, and how this led to a result, not looking at the end result and making it up from there.

We do miss good chances, but have only really had one good forward for 3 games, and we need two good forwards for all games, hard to be critical about that. We should still be doing better mind.

I don't think we get over-run in midfield, although we do give it away too cheaply sometimes. The midfield is not great though, far from it.

We are conceding far too many goals, yep, through mistakes (expected), bad decisions (hard done by) and some rareties going in (hard done by)

We are getting a point a match, the above lead to this

We are above the relegation places on goal difference, we would be above by lots of points if more had went our way, or we had maybe got what we deserved/ finished better.

Andy man, Sunderland won 3-0 at the same place we lost 1-0 and we were awful there; really bad.

 

[Alwaysaborolad]

I do.

I still see us in top six come the end of the season and CW in charge.

Problem we have, is our team is too slow to play as Wilder describes "dynamic on the foot football"
McNair, Clarke, Mowatt, Howson, Crooks, all run like their treading water... and Mcgree isn't blessed with pace.;
That is 6 out of 10 outfield players that started on Tuesday.. time and time again we were out of position in the 1st half, and we didn't have the pace to get back into shape.. If Wilder doesn't realise we are getting overrun ,with our slow midfield 3 and 2 of our central defenders, and does nothing to fix the problem, then we wont be anywhere near the top 6,

 

[BoroMart]

Sunderland battered them, but we were tame?

View attachment 44461 View attachment 44460

We created more than Sunderland did, and that was despite Reading actually trying to go after Sunderland, and cramming 11 behind the ball against us. Sunderland had plenty of opportunity to counterattack and make the most of space, largely through them getting ahead. Couple of good finishes by Roberts to be fair, but the defending was absolutely ****.

I'm not trying to be biased, I'm just trying to look at the cause, which led to the effect, and how this led to a result, not looking at the end result and making it up from there.

We do miss good chances, but have only really had one good forward for 3 games, and we need two good forwards for all games, hard to be critical about that. We should still be doing better mind.

I don't think we get over-run in midfield, although we do give it away too cheaply sometimes. The midfield is not great though, far from it.

We are conceding far too many goals, yep, through mistakes (expected), bad decisions (hard done by) and some rareties going in (hard done by)

We are getting a point a match, the above lead to this

We are above the relegation places on goal difference, we would be above by lots of points if more had went our way, or we had maybe got what we deserved/ finished better.

I believe that if we had Muniz or a fit Akpom vs Reading we'd have battered them. Forss wasn't physical enough to cause them an issue against a packed defence

 

[BoroMart]

Andy man, Sunderland won 3-0 at the same place we lost 1-0 and we were awful there; really bad.

Did you go?

We moved the ball slowly yes, we didn't cause them enough problems until the last 20 mins, but when we did we had them on the ropes and should have scored 3. But they literally couldn't lay a glove on us all match.. The tactics nullified because they had 11 behind the ball, and we struggled to break down without a physical presence up top. Last 20, they tired after relentless shadow chasing, and we started to get good balls in. I don't buy the we were awful comments. They got their tactics right and all the breaks, and we didn't do what we had to in their box. Had we got one, we would have got 3 or 4. They were very lucky.

 

[Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret]

The word "should" has been appearing quite a lot this season.