A Brexiteer in full flow....

Jimstewart

Active member
Ronnie Campbell didn't contest the last election. Susan Dungworth lost Blyth by 700 votes.
Yep you are correct. Still who would ever have thought that would turn blue? Labour since the seat was formed in 1950 other than in 74 when Labour independent snatched it from official Labour. However just like Skinner Campbell campaigned to leave the EU.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
'I have always admired Lefty's messages but to base a whole argument on polls is as weak as pee. I never tell posters the truth I doubt anyone does, it's almost as daft as saying the Russians had more say in the referendum than the £18m the government spent on printing remain, for the record Leave spent £13m.'

If I was basing my whole argument on a poll you'd have a point, but I'm not actually basing any of my argument on it, it just happens to be one tiny piece of evidence that shows Leave voters were hopelessly divided on what they all supposedly knew they were voting for.

Furthermore, nothing in my disagreement with Leave voters, or my disapproval of the reasoning behind their choice has anything, anything at all, to do with their values. Their values could be different to mine in which case, largely, vive la difference as those terrific French people say. Or they could be exactly the same as mine. It's not their values I have an issue with. It is their logical reasoning, their critical thinking skills that they failed to employ to their own usual standards that disappoints me so much. There is a process that we should go through long before we get to the point where the value judgement even enters into the equation.

We can discuss the impact of advertising, fake news and the evidence of Russian meddling in the Brexit campaign another time, if you'd like.
 

Same_as_before

Well-known member
'I have always admired Lefty's messages but to base a whole argument on polls is as weak as pee. I never tell posters the truth I doubt anyone does, it's almost as daft as saying the Russians had more say in the referendum than the £18m the government spent on printing remain, for the record Leave spent £13m.'

If I was basing my whole argument on a poll you'd have a point, but I'm not actually basing any of my argument on it, it just happens to be one tiny piece of evidence that shows Leave voters were hopelessly divided on what they all supposedly knew they were voting for.

Furthermore, nothing in my disagreement with Leave voters, or my disapproval of the reasoning behind their choice has anything, anything at all, to do with their values. Their values could be different to mine in which case, largely, vive la difference as those terrific French people say. Or they could be exactly the same as mine. It's not their values I have an issue with. It is their logical reasoning, their critical thinking skills that they failed to employ to their own usual standards that disappoints me so much. There is a process that we should go through long before we get to the point where the value judgement even enters into the equation.

We can discuss the impact of advertising, fake news and the evidence of Russian meddling in the Brexit campaign another time, if you'd like.
I promised myself to stay well out of Brexit. The premise of Remainers is any good news would have happened anyway and bad news is down to Brexit, Brexiteers think all good news is down to Brexit and bad news would have happened anyway. Never the twain.

My brother was an fervent Brexiteer, to you he was ignorant, to me he decided that he never agreed with a parliament based on 27 different cultures and economies was too difficult to manage. He saw the end of steel, Ship building, ICI, and other heavy industries down to the ease of movement, car plants transferred to Poland and other eastern European countries as avoidable. But as you say he is thick, ignorant and a Racist. And yes he Voted Tory for the first time in his life.
 

Muttley

Well-known member
He saw the end of steel, Ship building, ICI, and other heavy industries down to the ease of movement, car plants transferred to Poland and other eastern European countries as avoidable. But as you say he is thick, ignorant and a Racist. And yes he Voted Tory for the first time in his life.
He followed an appealing fiction.
 

Centralscrutinizer

Well-known member
I promised myself to stay well out of Brexit. The premise of Remainers is any good news would have happened anyway and bad news is down to Brexit, Brexiteers think all good news is down to Brexit and bad news would have happened anyway. Never the twain.

My brother was an fervent Brexiteer, to you he was ignorant, to me he decided that he never agreed with a parliament based on 27 different cultures and economies was too difficult to manage. He saw the end of steel, Ship building, ICI, and other heavy industries down to the ease of movement, car plants transferred to Poland and other eastern European countries as avoidable. But as you say he is thick, ignorant and a Racist. And yes he Voted Tory for the first time in his life.
Pretty much all down to the UK mismanaging itself + a large dose of globalisation. The EU made a good scapegoat to be used by our politicians though.
 

Andy_W

Active member
Pretty much all down to the UK mismanaging itself + a large dose of globalisation. The EU made a good scapegoat to be used by our politicians though.
Exactly.

Some think (or want) those in China, India, Brazil and some of the "lower" EU countries to have stayed in the 2nd or 3rd world forever. It's just not going to happen, the world will develop and get stronger, and that in turn will make the UK comparatively weaker. The world has moved in cycles for billions of years, we can't stop it.

People are completely misguided if they think we're the only ones that can make steel, ships, cars or whatever, we may have been a long time back, but anywhere can do it now, far cheaper, as they have more and cheaper labour (as they're not quite as developed, but still have access to all the tech, and far more natural resources). It's impossible for us to compete as we have fewer resources and people won't work for £1 an hour.

The only way we can sort of stay as we are/ were was by being part of a bigger group and slowly transitioning away from areas where we can't compete, and won't be able to compete in the future. This was easier to do within the EU and also made the EU stronger with more buying power and easier movements, it's easier for the EU to compete with Asia and the US than it is the UK on it's own.

Now we will need to go in a completely new direction as there's zero chance of manufacturing or exports to remain here long term, or to grow compared to the rest of the world.
 
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HundredRoom

Well-known member
Can we have a new "Brexit is shyte" thread - Im bored with this one and the other 500+. Come on Exfooty please start another one

You avatar is very revealing. Stuck in the past
 

Lefty

Well-known member
I promised myself to stay well out of Brexit. The premise of Remainers is any good news would have happened anyway and bad news is down to Brexit, Brexiteers think all good news is down to Brexit and bad news would have happened anyway. Never the twain.

My brother was an fervent Brexiteer, to you he was ignorant, to me he decided that he never agreed with a parliament based on 27 different cultures and economies was too difficult to manage. He saw the end of steel, Ship building, ICI, and other heavy industries down to the ease of movement, car plants transferred to Poland and other eastern European countries as avoidable. But as you say he is thick, ignorant and a Racist. And yes he Voted Tory for the first time in his life.

'Brexiteers think all good news is down to Brexit and bad news would have happened anyway'

While this is often true, in the periods up to the end of the transition period, we were still operating under EU rules, so much of the 'good' news was not due to Brexit. Also, some of the 'good' news was simply maintaining the status quo. The 'good' element was that some of the foreseen potential adverse consequences of Brexit thankfully did not materialise.

'The premise of Remainers is any good news would have happened anyway and bad news is down to Brexit'

Yes, people need to be careful. Good and bad things happen all the time, so it does not follow that Brexit must have been the reason for either. However one of the main concerns of those opposing Brexit were not that Brexit alone and in of itself would cause real difficulties for business, though it might, it was that because we know bad things come along that it was stupid to hump Brexit - a badly thought out and prepared for Brexit at that - on top of anything else. Along came Covid.

It could have been Sars, Mers, diesel, a financial crash, war on EU borders, war in oil producing states, foot and mouth, CJD, ..... lot's of things we have very little control over, but impact us in some way on a fairly regular basis. We trusted to luck when we invited a totally unnecessary secondary (major) issue, when the odds were not great that something else would come along.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
I promised myself to stay well out of Brexit. The premise of Remainers is any good news would have happened anyway and bad news is down to Brexit, Brexiteers think all good news is down to Brexit and bad news would have happened anyway. Never the twain.

My brother was an fervent Brexiteer, to you he was ignorant, to me he decided that he never agreed with a parliament based on 27 different cultures and economies was too difficult to manage. He saw the end of steel, Ship building, ICI, and other heavy industries down to the ease of movement, car plants transferred to Poland and other eastern European countries as avoidable. But as you say he is thick, ignorant and a Racist. And yes he Voted Tory for the first time in his life.

With regard to your brother, I am very happy to take your word for it that he isn't racist. I'd be surprised if he was because he's close kin with you and I know from your views over many years that you're nothing but decent. I don't think he is thick either. Probably most people wouldn't call me thick either, but I've got to tell you, I am on occasion immensely thick. Ask me to do any DIY task and I am not just lacking the physical skills, even how I think about approaching the task is usually embarrassingly stupid. That's the thing, when I call Leave voters stupid, it's not that I think they are actually generally very intellectually lacking. It's not that I think that compared to me they are intellectually inferior at all. It's specific. It's specific to them and it is specific to the context of Brexit.

I do think he is ignorant, but let me expand, lest you misunderstand and get agitated.

Merriam-Webster defines ignorant thus

1a: destitute of knowledge or education

//an ignorant society

also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified

//parents ignorant of modern mathematics

b: resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence

//ignorant errors

2: UNAWARE,
UNINFORMED


I don't think he lacks intelligence nor would I assume he lacked education, at least not in any general way.

I do think he probably lacks knowledge or comprehension of things specified eg the EU, International Trade, International Law, supply chains and so on. Apart from a very small number of the flexcit (EFTA/EEA) advocates, that is unfortunately true of all Leave voters.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
With regard to your brother, I am very happy to take your word for it that he isn't racist. I'd be surprised if he was because he's close kin with you and I know from your views over many years that you're nothing but decent. I don't think he is thick either. Probably most people wouldn't call me thick either, but I've got to tell you, I am on occasion immensely thick. Ask me to do any DIY task and I am not just lacking the physical skills, even how I think about approaching the task is usually embarrassingly stupid. That's the thing, when I call Leave voters stupid, it's not that I think they are actually generally very intellectually lacking. It's not that I think that compared to me they are intellectually inferior at all. It's specific. It's specific to them and it is specific to the context of Brexit.

I do think he is ignorant, but let me expand, lest you misunderstand and get agitated.

Merriam-Webster defines ignorant thus

1a: destitute of knowledge or education

//an ignorant society

also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified

//parents ignorant of modern mathematics

b: resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence

//ignorant errors

2: UNAWARE,
UNINFORMED


I don't think he lacks intelligence nor would I assume he lacked education, at least not in any general way.

I do think he probably lacks knowledge or comprehension of things specified eg the EU, International Trade, International Law, supply chains and so on. Apart from a very small number of the flexcit (EFTA/EEA) advocates, that is unfortunately true of all Leave voters.

Other than general ignorance about the EU and Trade in general, why your brother is stupid, in this narrow specific matter of Brexit, is shown by the very reasoning you have given for his vote.

'he decided that he never agreed with a parliament based on 27 different cultures and economies was too difficult to manage. He saw the end of steel, Ship building, ICI, and other heavy industries down to the ease of movement, car plants transferred to Poland and other eastern European countries as avoidable'

There is a perfectly reasonable point regarding 27 different cultures, but it seems to me the majority of his objection to the EU is on economic grounds, whether that is the difficulty of managing 27 different economies or the role he saw the EU playing in the demise of the UK steel, shipbuilding, chemical, car manufacturing and other heavy industries.

So I think, making some reasonable assumptions about your brother, that there are some internal logic contradictions going on in his reasoning.

I'm assuming it isn't the factory owners having to move abroad that he felt sorry for, but the workers and the effect on the local community. He had never voted Conservative before the last election and he is your brother - siblings tend on the whole to share a lot of similar values and views. That suggests he is also left leaning. I, and many on the Left, the majority on the Left in fact, were also angry and saddened at the end of steel, Ship building, ICI, and other heavy industries, including some car plants transferred to Poland and other eastern European countries, no doubt made easier due to the Four Freedoms central to the rules and structure of the EU's Internal Market. Our values aren't that far apart, so it is not his values that I think are stupid, it is his vote. How, despite sharing so many common values, the route his decision making process led him down, was in fact the stupid one to reflect those values.

I probably disagree with him on the degree to which the EU is responsible, but that is a genuinely contentious area and if he is of the opinion that the EU was at least as responsible as, say, the Conservatives under Margaret Thatcher, then fair enough.

I wonder, though. Was that his opinion at the time? Your brother must have been baffled at all the marches and protests at Westminster and Ben Elton blaming the Conservative Government rather than everyone marching on Brussels?

Or has he changed opinion since? Because if not and his motivation for his Brexit vote was largely because he could not forgive their role in the demise in UK heavy industry then, ahem, he just voted Conservative.

Even if he has been consistent with his views or changed them, his main rationale is economics. Well, it is only logical that he therefore looked at the overall likely impact of Brexit on the economy. That means not what being a part of the EU back in the 80's might have done, but what leaving it would do today. No credible evidence was offered by the Leave campaigns that Brexit would improve the economy. The Economists for Brexit claimed it would, but wouldn't show their workings because when ever they did, the scrutiny it allowed showed their modelling to be farcical. There were plenty of studies, sector by sector, including the car manufacturing industry (EU membership can be demonstrably shown to have been hugely beneficial to us by the way), which shows in purely economic terms, the odds were that leaving the Single Market was going to give us a significant negative hit.

Even if people didn't vote Leave for economic reasons and it was the impact of the EU and EU migrants on British culture that was their main motivation, ignoring the economic impact is bad reasoning, because it was definitely a consideration, because it had to have an impact.
 
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