A Brexiteer in full flow....

Lefty

Well-known member
It's amazing that all Brexiteers are ignorant. I look up to you.

Perhaps 7% weren’t. The flexciters weren’t ignorant. They understood the value of the Single Market and difficulty of leaving it. They just made an illogical choice regardless, because they did not know the answer to the question of how much our contributions would be in EFTA.

But if you think brexiters were not ignorant, point to me where, pre referendum, ANY of you, any at all, had even mentioned the difficulty of the Good Friday Agreement?

For YEARS after the vote most of you pretended it wasn’t a problem. You know, that legally binding international agreement that ultimately the Government, after 4 years of wrangling with their ignorance, decided to solve it by retaining the right to break the law. FFS!

That people were ignorant in 2016 is understandable, we all were to a degree. There is no excuse now, so why are some of you continuing to be so stupid? That is a serious question you need to ask yourselves. You are going to be embarrassed when you do realise just how badly you have employed your usual reasoning and intelligence.

It’s like you can’t actually entertain the idea you can be ignorant and stupid, then accuse the other side of superiority.
 

Londons_Moggie

Well-known member
Labout voters voted mainly to Remain. Skinner and co were at odds with Labour voters and Labour members and Labour policy.

The last election was not just about how much some wanted Brexit, but how much some didn’t want Corbyn and how much some just wanted an end to Brexit. Unfortunately the latter were too stupid/ignorant to realise that Brexit is not going to be over until we are again inevitably aligned with the Single Market and is NEVER going to deliver on its promises.
60 / 40 split. Not as much as people often make out
 

Londons_Moggie

Well-known member
It was a bit higher than that for Labour voters, more like 2/3, and significantly higher for members.
It was 63% remain based on Labour voters from the 20-5 election. If you removed the anomaly that is London it would be pushing a 50/50 split
 

Same_as_before

Well-known member
Perhaps 7% weren’t. The flexciters weren’t ignorant. They understood the value of the Single Market and difficulty of leaving it. They just made an illogical choice regardless, because they did not know the answer to the question of how much our contributions would be in EFTA.

But if you think brexiters were not ignorant, point to me where, pre referendum, ANY of you, any at all, had even mentioned the difficulty of the Good Friday Agreement?

For YEARS after the vote most of you pretended it wasn’t a problem. You know, that legally binding international agreement that ultimately the Government, after 4 years of wrangling with their ignorance, decided to solve it by retaining the right to break the law. FFS!

That people were ignorant in 2016 is understandable, we all were to a degree. There is no excuse now, so why are some of you continuing to be so stupid? That is a serious question you need to ask yourselves. You are going to be embarrassed when you do realise just how badly you have employed your usual reasoning and intelligence.

It’s like you can’t actually entertain the idea you can be ignorant and stupid, then accuse the other side of superiority.
I think you have been hacked.
 

JackG

Well-known member
Perhaps 7% weren’t. The flexciters weren’t ignorant. They understood the value of the Single Market and difficulty of leaving it. They just made an illogical choice regardless, because they did not know the answer to the question of how much our contributions would be in EFTA.

But if you think brexiters were not ignorant, point to me where, pre referendum, ANY of you, any at all, had even mentioned the difficulty of the Good Friday Agreement?

For YEARS after the vote most of you pretended it wasn’t a problem. You know, that legally binding international agreement that ultimately the Government, after 4 years of wrangling with their ignorance, decided to solve it by retaining the right to break the law. FFS!

That people were ignorant in 2016 is understandable, we all were to a degree. There is no excuse now, so why are some of you continuing to be so stupid? That is a serious question you need to ask yourselves. You are going to be embarrassed when you do realise just how badly you have employed your usual reasoning and intelligence.

It’s like you can’t actually entertain the idea you can be ignorant and stupid, then accuse the other side of superiority.
I voted remain, but more of a 'reform from within' than 'everything in the EU is rosy' voter. One of the plus points in the Brexit column, for me at least, was the increased likelihood of a reunited Ireland. Not everyone will share my views on Ireland and nor would I expect them to. We all have different values and give different weightings to the perceived pros and cons. You appear unable to imagine that anyone not sharing your views could be anything other than ignorant, stupid or malevolent.
 

Ex Footy Legs

Well-known member
What’s at the heart of your opposition to the EU?

It’s about workers being exploited. All that nonsense Mike Ashley does dragging people about for a pittance is enabled by the EU.
Nobody should be surprised. Being against the EU has been in every General Election address I’ve given for the last twelve elections.

Dennis Skinner September 2017.

Plenty of examples like him on his side of the fence. It wasn’t just the ERG it was right and left. And poor old Dennis paid the price for Labour’s brexit policy with his seat at the last election when the reddest of red wall seats went blue. Ronnie Campbell in Blyth was exactly the same. The Labour Party is at odds with the left on brexit and is at odds with a hell of a lot of its core voters if the last election is anything to go by.


It’s about workers being exploited. All that nonsense Mike Ashley does dragging people about for a pittance is enabled by the EU.
Nobody should be surprised. Being against the EU has been in every General Election address I’ve given for the last twelve elections

Utter rubbish
This has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with our own legalisation to stop the likes of Ashley doing what he did but the ‘right’ love a poor rate of pay and keeping people in their place
This was a Tory issue not an EU issue
 

Jimstewart

Active member
It’s about workers being exploited. All that nonsense Mike Ashley does dragging people about for a pittance is enabled by the EU.
Nobody should be surprised. Being against the EU has been in every General Election address I’ve given for the last twelve elections

Utter rubbish
This has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with our own legalisation to stop the likes of Ashley doing what he did but the ‘right’ love a poor rate of pay and keeping people in their place
This was a Tory issue not an EU
It’s about workers being exploited. All that nonsense Mike Ashley does dragging people about for a pittance is enabled by the EU.
Nobody should be surprised. Being against the EU has been in every General Election address I’ve given for the last twelve elections

Utter rubbish
This has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with our own legalisation to stop the likes of Ashley doing what he did but the ‘right’ love a poor rate of pay and keeping people in their place
This was a Tory issue not an EU issue
If you are a Labour voter you can proudly vote on Labour values to leave the EU. You are voting for fairness, rights at work and you are voting for the NHS.
And you are voting for a country that is not increasingly run by big businesses and the European Commission.

Labour MP John Mann June 2016.

He also echoed Red Dennis Skinner’s thoughts on workers rights saying the EU had left them at the mercy of cheap imported Labour and zero hours contracts.

He then went on to say that if the Labour Party in Britain sat on its hands on Europe it would lose ground to the right giving the Austrian Labour Party as a prime example.
“We are not ceding ground to Farage and the Thatcher fan club when in fact our values could be perfectly advanced by voting to leave the EU.
The Labour Party in Austria did nothing sat on its hands and paid a terrible political price. That doesn’t help the working class in Austria.”

The last paragraph could sum up the general election here three years later.

But it was all the ERG we are told.
 

bear66

Well-known member
If you are a Labour voter you can proudly vote on Labour values to leave the EU. You are voting for fairness, rights at work and you are voting for the NHS.
And you are voting for a country that is not increasingly run by big businesses and the European Commission.

Labour MP John Mann June 2016.

He also echoed Red Dennis Skinner’s thoughts on workers rights saying the EU had left them at the mercy of cheap imported Labour and zero hours contracts.

He then went on to say that if the Labour Party in Britain sat on its hands on Europe it would lose ground to the right giving the Austrian Labour Party as a prime example.
“We are not ceding ground to Farage and the Thatcher fan club when in fact our values could be perfectly advanced by voting to leave the EU.
The Labour Party in Austria did nothing sat on its hands and paid a terrible political price. That doesn’t help the working class in Austria.”

The last paragraph could sum up the general election here three years later.

But it was all the ERG we are told.
2 million, who had never voted before and weren't first time voters, voted for the Tories in 2019.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
What’s at the heart of your opposition to the EU?

It’s about workers being exploited. All that nonsense Mike Ashley does dragging people about for a pittance is enabled by the EU.
Nobody should be surprised. Being against the EU has been in every General Election address I’ve given for the last twelve elections.

Dennis Skinner September 2017.

A case in point about the ignorance of some on the Left. He made his mind up in 1974 and nothing was going to persuade him otherwise, not least reality.

The UK enabled Mike Ashley. The EU set minimum standards -agreed by it's member states remember - but they don't say a country can't unilaterally legislate for higher standards. If we wanted to make the minimum wage up, we could. If we wanted to tackle the rules around zero hours contracts, nothing prevented us, except the government we chose to elect.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
I think you have been hacked.

In the poll below, the only one of it's type conducted around the actual time of the referendum, we can see Leave voters were all over the shop in all knowing exactly what they voted for. 35% wanted to Leave the Single Market - that is just the will of 6.1m people we are all doing. 54% of Leave voters wanted their cake and eat it. 4% didn't know much about anything. 7% can be said to have at least understood the Single Market. Or perhaps, by the most absolutely generous interpretation, 54% + 7% wanted to Remain in the Single Market, but 54% wanted the UK to impose restrictions it was allowed to but had chose not to.

DpjwhaXWwAAvqLk.jpg
 

Lefty

Well-known member
It was 63% remain based on Labour voters from the 20-5 election. If you removed the anomaly that is London it would be pushing a 50/50 split

You Gov Poll 27/6/16

Labour voters (2015)

Remain 65%
Leave 35%

Thought it was 2/3

Labour members

'Some 83% of Labour members we surveyed voted Remain in 2016 – a much higher proportion, incidentally, than the 60% of 2017 Labour voters who did the same.'

'Some 73% of current Labour voters think – in hindsight and irrespective of what they themselves voted in 2016 – that the UK was wrong to vote to leave the EU. That proportion rises to 89% among Labour members – and is a view shared, too, by 31% of the small minority of members who did vote Leave in the Referendum.'

'If such a referendum – a ‘People’s vote’ as some call it – is held, it is clear which way Labour’s rank and file would go. Some 88% of them say their first preference in a three-way referendum would be to remain in the EU, with only 3% saying that it would be to leave the EU with Mrs May’s deal and only 5% saying it would be leaving with no deal. The figures for current Labour voters are 71%, 8%, and 12% respectively.'

As I said, the likes of Hoey, Stuart and Skinner were a minority element, out of step with their voters and even more so with their members, who are supposed to be listened to when Party policy is set.

Jan 2019
 

Lefty

Well-known member
I voted remain, but more of a 'reform from within' than 'everything in the EU is rosy' voter. One of the plus points in the Brexit column, for me at least, was the increased likelihood of a reunited Ireland. Not everyone will share my views on Ireland and nor would I expect them to. We all have different values and give different weightings to the perceived pros and cons. You appear unable to imagine that anyone not sharing your views could be anything other than ignorant, stupid or malevolent.

'You appear unable to imagine that anyone not sharing your views could be anything other than ignorant, stupid or malevolent.'

Can you define what you think I mean by stupid in this context?
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
In the poll below, the only one of it's type conducted around the actual time of the referendum, we can see Leave voters were all over the shop in all knowing exactly what they voted for. 35% wanted to Leave the Single Market - that is just the will of 6.1m people we are all doing. 54% of Leave voters wanted their cake and eat it. 4% didn't know much about anything. 7% can be said to have at least understood the Single Market. Or perhaps, by the most absolutely generous interpretation, 54% + 7% wanted to Remain in the Single Market, but 54% wanted the UK to impose restrictions it was allowed to but had chose not to.

View attachment 13730
You won't get any reply from brexiters about that, they will just gloss over it or deny it was the case, without providing any evidence otherwise.

The thing is about half of that 35% thought we could leave the single market, customs union and end freedom of movement, yet somehow retain the exact same trading situation we had, but with "no more immigrants", absolutely deluded.

Effectively half of them didn't even know what the single market and customs union even were in 2016, and a lot of that half still didn't in 2020. They're very slowly learning now but most don't even want to know, because it's not in their garden, they don't think it exists.
 
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Lefty

Well-known member
You won't get any reply from brexiters about that, they will just gloss over it or deny it was the case, without providing zero evidence otherwise.

The thing is about half of that 35% thought we could leave the single market, customs union and end freedom of movement, yet somehow retain the exact same trading situation we had, but with "no more immigrants", absolutely deluded.

Effectively half of them didn't even know what the single market and customs union even were in 2016, and a lot of that half still didn't in 2020. They're very slowly learning now but most don't even want to know, because it's not in their garden, they don't think it exists.

But....



6924A6D4-32BC-419B-95FA-4FE9261E36F3.jpeg
 

Andy_W

Well-known member
Exactly, they think they're all being told they're stupid, but a lot of them aren't. But they do not need to be stupid to be in the situation where they don't know what they don't know and didn't know what they didn't know.
There is no way on earth that they all got anywhere near what they wanted, as there was no common line of what Brexit was going to be.

The only reason Brexit won was that it could be 10 different contradictory things to 10 different contradictory people, something which the leave campaigns knew exactly, and they specifically targeted a section of voters who were there for the taking. Although Cummings is a tosser, he's a very clever tosser and an excellent strategist for this field (not so much for pandemics). They knew full well that when it came about it didn't have to deliver to 90% of them, as they could just point to the 10% that it ended up landing at, and highlight it (yet tactically ignore the rest).

The remain campaign did not realise what leave was doing until it was too late and largely through overconfidence that people would know enough, to vote what was best for them, it was misplaced faith.

Remain could only be one or two things, stay as it is, or reform what it is, although both quite similar and would largely have been unnoticeable to the average guy on the street.

It was clever by the leave campaign, no denying that, but they didn't beat remain as much as they beat and used their own supporters, which is why nearly everyone "lost". It's strange though, the areas that it will hit the most are the ones that voted for it, unless the government decides to prioritise these areas, which it has zero track record of doing.
 

Same_as_before

Well-known member
In the poll below, the only one of it's type conducted around the actual time of the referendum, we can see Leave voters were all over the shop in all knowing exactly what they voted for. 35% wanted to Leave the Single Market - that is just the will of 6.1m people we are all doing. 54% of Leave voters wanted their cake and eat it. 4% didn't know much about anything. 7% can be said to have at least understood the Single Market. Or perhaps, by the most absolutely generous interpretation, 54% + 7% wanted to Remain in the Single Market, but 54% wanted the UK to impose restrictions it was allowed to but had chose not to.

View attachment 13730
[/QUOT
You won't get any reply from brexiters about that, they will just gloss over it or deny it was the case, without providing any evidence otherwise.

The thing is about half of that 35% thought we could leave the single market, customs union and end freedom of movement, yet somehow retain the exact same trading situation we had, but with "no more immigrants", absolutely deluded.

Effectively half of them didn't even know what the single market and customs union even were in 2016, and a lot of that half still didn't in 2020. They're very slowly learning now but most don't even want to know, because it's not in their garden, they don't think it exists.
I have always admired Lefty's messages but to base a whole argument on polls is as weak as pee. I never tell posters the truth I doubt anyone does, it's almost as daft as saying the Russians had more say in the referendum than the £18m the government spent on printing remain, for the record Leave spent £13m.
 

Corcaigh_the_Cat

Well-known member
There are those who argued for Brexit using worker exploitation as a reason but also argue vehemently against a reasonable level of pay for employees.
 

newusername

Well-known member
What’s at the heart of your opposition to the EU?

It’s about workers being exploited. All that nonsense Mike Ashley does dragging people about for a pittance is enabled by the EU.
Nobody should be surprised. Being against the EU has been in every General Election address I’ve given for the last twelve elections.

Dennis Skinner September 2017.

Plenty of examples like him on his side of the fence. It wasn’t just the ERG it was right and left. And poor old Dennis paid the price for Labour’s brexit policy with his seat at the last election when the reddest of red wall seats went blue. Ronnie Campbell in Blyth was exactly the same. The Labour Party is at odds with the left on brexit and is at odds with a hell of a lot of its core voters if the last election is anything to go by.
Ronnie Campbell didn't contest the last election. Susan Dungworth lost Blyth by 700 votes.
 
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