A Brexiteer in full flow....

Zoophonic

Well-known member
That Gove stand up video that was posted a day or two went on for an hour and twenty mins. Most sane people got through 4 mins only.

However on 65 mins Hoey makes an appearance with Gove. Utter cringing.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
She was as ignorant and dishonest as any of the ERG on Brexit.

I thought she left the stage a year ago, don’t tell me she’s back? Has she surfaced in Trumps defence team or something?
 

Jimstewart

Active member
I’ve always thought her a bit strange especially the pro hunting stance. Leaving the European Union isn’t just an ERG/right wing ideology though the left has never been a fan of EU membership. Tony Benn never wanted to be in first time around and said for years he wanted out as did the likes of Peter Shore and Eric Heffer. Labour leave had the likes of Frank Field, Graham Stringer, John Mann, Gisela Stuart, John Mills to name but a few. Even good old Dennis Skinner and the banished gorgeous George Galloway wanted out. It’s an uncomfortable truth for many on here but brexit crossed party lines and even more so in the constituencies hence the disaster at the last election. Maybe if Corbyn had stuck to his real beliefs on EU membership that red wall would still have a bit of cement in it.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
I’ve always thought her a bit strange especially the pro hunting stance. Leaving the European Union isn’t just an ERG/right wing ideology though the left has never been a fan of EU membership. Tony Benn never wanted to be in first time around and said for years he wanted out as did the likes of Peter Shore and Eric Heffer. Labour leave had the likes of Frank Field, Graham Stringer, John Mann, Gisela Stuart, John Mills to name but a few. Even good old Dennis Skinner and the banished gorgeous George Galloway wanted out. It’s an uncomfortable truth for many on here but brexit crossed party lines and even more so in the constituencies hence the disaster at the last election. Maybe if Corbyn had stuck to his real beliefs on EU membership that red wall would still have a bit of cement in it.

What were Corbyn’s real beliefs on EU membership?

Gisela Stuart was as bad as Hoey.

Those Brexiters on the left were as ignorant of the EU as those on the right. Many formed their views in the 1970’s and were unable to update their views despite the evident evolving of the EU into a very different beast it was in 1974. That is a very human failing, especially among the highly principled, the ideologically driven and the very loyal, who all can find it difficult to change a position.

The thing is, the key question, is not whether the EU had faults or if it sometimes makes poor decisions. It does. No-one on the pro EU side said otherwise. The question was whether we should leave. Was not being part of the EU better?

Well, to know that, we needed to know what the actual future destination was to be. We only found that four and a half years after the flaming vote. It’s not good. It makes an absolute mockery of the idea that those who voted leave used any kind of clear logical reasoning. They did not. They were ignorant people, duped, shutting their eyes, crossing their fingers and putting a cross in a box that relied on the very worst type of Conservative MP to implement, those with no understanding, no heart and no plan.
 

Jimstewart

Active member
What were Corbyn’s real beliefs on EU membership?

Gisela Stuart was as bad as Hoey.

Those Brexiters on the left were as ignorant of the EU as those on the right. Many formed their views in the 1970’s and were unable to update their views despite the evident evolving of the EU into a very different beast it was in 1974. That is a very human failing, especially among the highly principled, the ideologically driven and the very loyal, who all can find it difficult to change a position.

The thing is, the key question, is not whether the EU had faults or if it sometimes makes poor decisions. It does. No-one on the pro EU side said otherwise. The question was whether we should leave. Was not being part of the EU better?

Well, to know that, we needed to know what the actual future destination was to be. We only found that four and a half years after the flaming vote. It’s not good. It makes an absolute mockery of the idea that those who voted leave used any kind of clear logical reasoning. They did not. They were ignorant people, duped, shutting their eyes, crossing their fingers and putting a cross in a box that relied on the very worst type of Conservative MP to implement, those with no understanding, no heart and no plan.
You may well be right . I’m simply pointing out that brexit doesn’t belong solely to the right wing of the Conservative party.

As for Corbyn and his views on Europe he voted against joining in 75, he voted against the Maastricht treaty in 93 and he voted against the Voted against the Lisbon treaty in 08 which does suggest a degree of Euro scepticism.
 

Capybara

Well-known member
It's the last bit (of Lefty's post) that gets me. I can just about understand that some on the 'left' (a term used loosely if it includes Hoey) wanted us out of the EU, but to do it knowing that the Tories would be implementing it? I can only imagine that they think it might start 'the revolution' leading to some sort of socialist nirvana.

I know someone who is not a Labour Party member and considers himself well to the left of them. He lives in Scotland but isn't Scottish. He voted for independence in 2014 but now says that he would vote to stay in the UK if there's another referendum because an independent Scotland would want to join the EU.
 

Jimstewart

Active member
It's the last bit (of Lefty's post) that gets me. I can just about understand that some on the 'left' (a term used loosely if it includes Hoey) wanted us out of the EU, but to do it knowing that the Tories would be implementing it? I can only imagine that they think it might start 'the revolution' leading to some sort of socialist nirvana.

I know someone who is not a Labour Party member and considers himself well to the left of them. He lives in Scotland but isn't Scottish. He voted for independence in 2014 but now says that he would vote to stay in the UK if there's another referendum because an independent Scotland would want to join the EU.
I think it’s fair to say the likes of George Galloway are of the left and he actively campaigned to leave.

The Bennite and Skinner side of the Labour Party never wanted in and have always wanted out regardless of who was to implement it.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
You may well be right . I’m simply pointing out that brexit doesn’t belong solely to the right wing of the Conservative party.

As for Corbyn and his views on Europe he voted against joining in 75, he voted against the Maastricht treaty in 93 and he voted against the Voted against the Lisbon treaty in 08 which does suggest a degree of Euro scepticism.

I am right.

There were plenty, well, some on the Left who voted Leave, but if anything they were the most stupid of all those who voted Leave because they should know that those who are in place at the outset of a project set the direction and destination and it is very difficult to change both of these. At the time of the referendum we knew, because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act, that this was going to be a Tory project for AT LEAST 4 years, possibly 9 or even more, and that it would be the IDS/Patel/Redwood/Bone/Francois/Bridgen/Dorries/Baker wing, the hostile environment loving, workers rights and consumer protection lowering, NHS privatising faction in the driving seat.

On Corbyn, his actions, or at least those closest too him, were ostensibly undermining of the Remain campaign. His words were something like he’d give it 7/10 and on balance just about in favour of it.
 

zorro_mfc

Well-known member
Those Brexiters on the left were as ignorant of the EU as those on the right. Many formed their views in the 1970’s and were unable to update their views despite the evident evolving of the EU into a very different beast it was in 1974. That is a very human failing, especially among the highly principled, the ideologically driven and the very loyal, who all can find it difficult to change a position.

The thing is, the key question, is not whether the EU had faults or if it sometimes makes poor decisions. It does. No-one on the pro EU side said otherwise. The question was whether we should leave. Was not being part of the EU better?
Those two statements are directly opposed to each other and a big reason why brexit happened.
 

Jimstewart

Active member
What’s at the heart of your opposition to the EU?

It’s about workers being exploited. All that nonsense Mike Ashley does dragging people about for a pittance is enabled by the EU.
Nobody should be surprised. Being against the EU has been in every General Election address I’ve given for the last twelve elections.

Dennis Skinner September 2017.

Plenty of examples like him on his side of the fence. It wasn’t just the ERG it was right and left. And poor old Dennis paid the price for Labour’s brexit policy with his seat at the last election when the reddest of red wall seats went blue. Ronnie Campbell in Blyth was exactly the same. The Labour Party is at odds with the left on brexit and is at odds with a hell of a lot of its core voters if the last election is anything to go by.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
I think it’s fair to say the likes of George Galloway are of the left and he actively campaigned to leave.

The Bennite and Skinner side of the Labour Party never wanted in and have always wanted out regardless of who was to implement it.

It is often seen to be admirable when someone sticks to their principles for 50 years.

It is not admirable for someone to remain welded to a position taken 50 years ago when the world and the EU have changed massively in that time.

What people needed to evaluate is whether those on the left who wanted to leave were the former and had made a clear, unbiased, informed assessment 45 years on. They hadn’t. Probably because their bias wouldn’t let them.
 

Same_as_before

Well-known member
What were Corbyn’s real beliefs on EU membership?

Gisela Stuart was as bad as Hoey.

Those Brexiters on the left were as ignorant of the EU as those on the right. Many formed their views in the 1970’s and were unable to update their views despite the evident evolving of the EU into a very different beast it was in 1974. That is a very human failing, especially among the highly principled, the ideologically driven and the very loyal, who all can find it difficult to change a position.

The thing is, the key question, is not whether the EU had faults or if it sometimes makes poor decisions. It does. No-one on the pro EU side said otherwise. The question was whether we should leave. Was not being part of the EU better?

Well, to know that, we needed to know what the actual future destination was to be. We only found that four and a half years after the flaming vote. It’s not good. It makes an absolute mockery of the idea that those who voted leave used any kind of clear logical reasoning. They did not. They were ignorant people, duped, shutting their eyes, crossing their fingers and putting a cross in a box that relied on the very worst type of Conservative MP to implement, those with no understanding, no heart and no plan.
It's amazing that all Brexiteers are ignorant. I look up to you.
 

zorro_mfc

Well-known member
yes you first say -

Those Brexiters on the left were as ignorant of the EU as those on the right.

Then you add

the EU had faults or if it sometimes makes poor decisions. It does. No-one on the pro EU side said otherwise.


but anyone that argued the remain mantra that the EU was the only answer was called thick ignorant racist etc so the lack of dialogue was a a factor ON BOTH sides.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
What’s at the heart of your opposition to the EU?

It’s about workers being exploited. All that nonsense Mike Ashley does dragging people about for a pittance is enabled by the EU.
Nobody should be surprised. Being against the EU has been in every General Election address I’ve given for the last twelve elections.

Dennis Skinner September 2017.

Plenty of examples like him on his side of the fence. It wasn’t just the ERG it was right and left. And poor old Dennis paid the price for Labour’s brexit policy with his seat at the last election when the reddest of red wall seats went blue. Ronnie Campbell in Blyth was exactly the same. The Labour Party is at odds with the left on brexit and is at odds with a hell of a lot of its core voters if the last election is anything to go by.

Labout voters voted mainly to Remain. Skinner and co were at odds with Labour voters and Labour members and Labour policy.

The last election was not just about how much some wanted Brexit, but how much some didn’t want Corbyn and how much some just wanted an end to Brexit. Unfortunately the latter were too stupid/ignorant to realise that Brexit is not going to be over until we are again inevitably aligned with the Single Market and is NEVER going to deliver on its promises.
 
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