.

exiledinboro said:
How do Labour improve things without borrowing (which they've ruled out) or by raising taxes?
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They have said they will borrow for capital investment. That aside they could improve things without borrowing for the day to day running of the country by ending the billions upon billions that the Tories are pouring down the drain. Just google 'Tories waste billions' and you can see where a lot of money could be saved.

Even today it has come to light that different Government departments were bidding against each other to secure hotels for migrants, pushing the price up on each other! You really couldn't make it up.

exiledinboro said:
how do Labour think growth will magically happen when they haven't changed much?
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Where Labour will propel the UK with growth is their Green Prosperity Plan. They have pledged to invest £28b per year which is a similar figure to the US.

Green investment, research and jobs is where the world is heading and with that kind of investment we will be at the forefront, not at the back as we currently are.


That's the two most obvious ones that I thought you may be aware of?
 
MolteniArcore said:
From my experience with the people I have spoken to rate Starmer and are a bit sick of Sunak, even though some of them live in his constituency. They have no trust issues with Starmer on their radar. Abbot has been off the radar for some time - maybe because she is of the left of the party and has been silenced somewhat? But I don't think she would put them off. These people want some change and the only credible alternative is Labour.
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We move in different circles, majority of folks I have spoken to aren't too keen on the Conservatives but do not rate Keir Starmer.. plus there is lots of left over bitterness over Brexit etc
 
MolteniArcore said:
From my experience with the people I have spoken to rate Starmer and are a bit sick of Sunak, even though some of them live in his constituency. They have no trust issues with Starmer on their radar. Abbot has been off the radar for some time - maybe because she is of the left of the party and has been silenced somewhat? But I don't think she would put them off. These people want some change and the only credible alternative is Labour.
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Sunak is not likeable, there is something not quite real about him, I can’t believe even hardcore Tories are happy with him in charge.
 
Hartlepool by election result 2021 (of 28%) is a warning to Labour that they need to appeal to working class people outside the big cities, as a generalistion they struggle to at present. These areas are the Red Wall seats. I still don't think the penny has dropped. Most of these people are not racists, nor naturally right wing. They want their families and communities to have a fair chance in life and Labour is not offering that in the way it did say under Atlee, Wilson and Blair (1997). They may not vote Tory even, but they will not vote Labour in the way they used to. The other warning is Scotland where the Labour vote collapsed to the SNP. BREXIT, Corbyn etc are not the core problem.
 
Nano said:
100%. I'm opposed to uncontrolled immigration (as is everyone, they just don't seem to be capable of admitting it since Brexit). Uncontrolled unskilled immigration causes the major negatives of immigration to only apply to the lowest end of the labour market (wage stagnation due to labour supply and therefore competition for jobs). The rest of us benefit because businesses keep costs down so we get cheap goods and services but I don't think the poorest people in society should be subsidising the rest of us so we can have cheap stuff. People that earn less money also tend to disproportionately consume public services (school, health, police, social work, housing, benefits etc) so immigration at that level costs us more. Immigration to fill skills we don't have in the country (doctors, nurses etc) is completely different although I would still argue that much, much more should be done to train our own as a priority but that takes significant time. There is a high demand for people wanting to emigrate to the UK. We can prioritise people that have the skills which we are lacking rather than having to turn away those people because we have to keep numbers manageable due to an influx of people that we have no control over that have the same skills as people we already have.

I understand why the EU insists on Freedom of Movement. Its entire raison d'etre is cheap costs for global businesses to make it competitive with Asia and the US. It's a neo-liberal state which is there to serve big business. They don't care if the UK has wage stagnation if it means that costs for businesses will be cheaper. They don't care about high youth unemployment across southern europe. That sort of thing benefits businesses because more competition for jobs means lower wages. The UK would have remained within the EU if the EU could offer what we previously had but without FoM but that is a red line for the EU.
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Good job we left then. The poorest in society must be relieved they're so much better off now 🙄

In theory a lot of what you say isn't completely without merit in theory. But taking the keys off the EU and handing them to the Tories (and that was always the most likely outcome) was absolutely mental.

People needed to look at the bigger picture in voting to leave. Too many didn't and just became fixated on a handful of issues, some of which weren't even really issues and some which were blown out of all proportion.
 
The Left is busy doing nothing right now. 35 Labour MPs in the Socialist Campaign Group should walk the floor to the greens. That makes them bigger than the Lib Dems in 2019, bigger than the both the Lib Dems and the SNP in 2017 that makes them a credible party immediately, if all of these monty python-esque factions can unite and show some solidarity that is a solid platform from which to build on.

The Fly in the ointment for Labour has always been the Liberal Democrats.. why not open the door and let the 11 or 12 MPs join Starmer's Labour Party now instead of being underhanded and pretending to be something that they are not.. you have two credible alternatives to the conservative party. The vote from the left isn't split as it has it's own vehicle and just as lib dem voters can vote labour so too can the thacherite and cameronites of the conservative party.

Those who want to vote conservative still can but there is now a clearer picture of the left, the centre and the right.
Eco-socialism/Democratic Socialism, Social Democracy/Liberal Democracy and Right-wing populism/British nationalism

Fsea-DmaAAE7cH5
 
I think this thread clearly demonstrates the need for electoral reform

I’m much more at home with the Green Party than I am with Keir Starmer’s Labour

I’m much more at home with 2019 Labour than I am with the Green Party

I’ll be voting for Keir starmer Labour as that’s the best chance of making people live better as quick as possible

It shouldn’t be like that
 
festa5 said:
Good job we left then. The poorest in society must be relieved they're so much better off now 🙄

In theory a lot of what you say isn't completely without merit in theory. But taking the keys off the EU and handing them to the Tories (and that was always the most likely outcome) was absolutely mental.

People needed to look at the bigger picture in voting to leave. Too many didn't and just became fixated on a handful of issues, some of which weren't even really issues and some which were blown out of all proportion.
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The poorest in society aren't really any worse off. They were poor then and they are poor now. It's easier to get a job now at least. Some people are better off though. The industries that have raised wages like HGV drivers did because they had no choice if they wanted things delivering means those people are now better off (not saying they are the poorest, just an example of wage supply/demand). The industries that are still clinging on to their old wage structure are struggling and hoping for government handouts instead of raising wages but they'll have to do it eventually.

I'd say only concentrating on what has happened in the 3 years since we left and not the next 30 years isn't looking at the bigger picture either. Thankfully the Tories won't be in charge forever/much longer and we can improve our relationship with the EU and reduce the friction. The majority of the negative impacts that Brexit has had have been due to choices made by the Tories and not because we are outside of the EU.
 
Nano said:
The poorest in society aren't really any worse off. They were poor then and they are poor now. It's easier to get a job now at least. Some people are better off though. The industries that have raised wages like HGV drivers did because they had no choice if they wanted things delivering means those people are now better off (not saying they are the poorest, just an example of wage supply/demand). The industries that are still clinging on to their old wage structure are struggling and hoping for government handouts instead of raising wages but they'll have to do it eventually.

I'd say only concentrating on what has happened in the 3 years since we left and not the next 30 years isn't looking at the bigger picture either. Thankfully the Tories won't be in charge forever/much longer and we can improve our relationship with the EU and reduce the friction. The majority of the negative impacts that Brexit has had have been due to choices made by the Tories and not because we are outside of the EU.
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They're not worse off? What planet are you living on? Cost of living crisis a myth is it?

And I'm really looking forward to the benefits in 30 years time. Can't F***ing wait.

Jesus wept.
 
festa5 said:
They're not worse off? What planet are you living on? Cost of living crisis a myth is it?

And I'm really looking forward to the benefits in 30 years time. Can't F***ing wait.

Jesus wept.
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I concur with your sentiments.
Almost 4,000,000 children living in poverty.
Record homelessness since before the Second World War.
The poorest growth rate of any of the main European countries.
Millions using food banks just to live.
Families, the disabled and the elderly having to chose between heating or eating whilst energy companies rake in trillions in profits.
Kids going to school hungry.
We`re not worse off - if you compare us to Dickensian times (y)
 
festa5 said:
They're not worse off? What planet are you living on? Cost of living crisis a myth is it?

And I'm really looking forward to the benefits in 30 years time. Can't F***ing wait.

Jesus wept.
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Relatively, no. They are still poor and they still have poor prospects but that's what they had anyway. Are you suggesting we didn't have any poor people before Brexit?

We could have had Brexit and improved all those things @r00fie1 has mentioned if we had a government that cared. Our relationship with the EU is not the main reason why those people are poor.

You don't have to wait 30 years. Do you struggle with comprehension or something? Big picture doesn't mean look now or in 30 years, it means look at the whole picture. Why are you using that analogy if you don't understand it yourself? Things will be better in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, 10 years etc. I'm saying you can't assess how something so big affects a country by looking at just the immediate impact. It would be like looking at a road with a speed bump and measuring the speed of the car in only the 1st 1m after the bump. The car will accelerate once it's over the bump. Something as significant as Brexit can only cause friction in the immediate term. It's too big a change not to.
 
exiledinboro said:
Labour have said they will borrow for capital investment for the green deal but they say that is separate from their budget which will remain low and so will be unable to improve services like I said
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Got a link? All I have heard is that it will be for 'Capital Investment' not 'Capital Investment for the Green Deal'.

exiledinboro said:
Nobody knows what Labours green deal is. Sadly not even Keir Starmer 🤔 it sounds like a quango to me where a GB energy firm is created to help private investors get involved in green projects with subsidies from the government. That's it 🤷🏻‍♂️
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You can find out here: https://labour.org.uk/stronger-together/a-fairer-greener-future/green-and-digital-future/

exiledinboro said:
You also never ackoledged if you're happy that the burden of tax is falling on the public? I take it you are in which case if you haven't noticed we can't tax ourselves anymore. So unless you tax other forms of wealth nothing will change under the tory Keir Starmer because we are crippled under the costs we face
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No, not happy with it, that is why I would be for some tax cuts. Ending Non-Dom is a start. I would like Labour to tax other forms of wealth but I can understand why this wouldn't be something they would be banging on about right now as it is an easy attack line for the Tories. I hope in the future they would announce something about this, after all, you can't put five budgets worth of policy out pre-manifesto a year out from an election.

The growth that I think will come from the green investment that has been proposed would mean we wouldn't be 'crippled under the costs we face'.

Anyway, you'll never agree with me, just putting my point across. I think I have answered your questions anyway but if you have anymore give me a shout (y)
 
r00fie1 said:
I concur with your sentiments.
Almost 4,000,000 children living in poverty.
Record homelessness since before the Second World War.
The poorest growth rate of any of the main European countries.
Millions using food banks just to live.
Families, the disabled and the elderly having to chose between heating or eating whilst energy companies rake in trillions in profits.
Kids going to school hungry.
We`re not worse off - if you compare us to Dickensian times (y)
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You are right we are witnessing the complete failure of capitalism in the U.K. and in my opinion, deep down, the Tories know it.
 
HolgateCorner said:
You are right we are witnessing the complete failure of capitalism in the U.K. and in my opinion, deep down, the Tories know it.
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unfettered capitalism is a vehicle that allows the sociopathic 1% to take, manipulate and corrupt. Their lack of conscience will not stop them, in fact it will simply promote and accelerate their behaviour.

Capitalism only works with lots of guard rails to prevent the transfer of wealth from the many to the masses, to protect the poor, to share wealth. Capitalism isn't the problem, the problem is the drive to remove governance, consumer rights, workers rights and laws that support the freedom of individuals to utilise their wealth to take more from society than they put in.

The Tory obsessions with deregulation, privatisation, economic liberalisation and their war on trading rules should have been a warning to any right minded working class person.
 
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