Thanks for clarifying. Was McNair free? That is great news and shows the Academy is proving fruitful. I guess we can add Coburn to your list. Also, getting Jones is proving a real scoop for the recruitment team. As you say, no amortisation for the players you listed, which is great for the club UTB.
£30m loss for Boro
- Thread starter redjohnnie
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Steve8778
Well-known member
Mcnair cost us £5m
Thanks, so only around £1m depreciation going through the accounts a year.
Andy_W
Well-known member
I don't think it is, well in so much as I don't think the chance of success is worth the risk, yet. I don't think our recruitment have proven enough to show that what they would spend would be relative value, and that we could get back what we spend, and not get nailed by contracts (but we are getting far better with the latter). We have no recent success of spending more than 5m on a player, and getting a good return in the last 5 years or so, and I doubt we could survive on trying to find <5m bargains (as everyone in the world is looking for them).
We have to keep in mind too that we have a much smaller pool of players to choose from, as the North East is the least likely place where any young footballer would want to live. I love it, but it's not attractive to young lads with loads of money. This means we either pay them more, or the players are only coming for a pay day, may not have the right character etc. It's VERY hard for us, due to our location I think.
Every smaller club, not looking for immediate trophies should be looking to buy players with resale value, and build up slowly, the problem is these players tend to be <25, and more often than not <23, which makes them expensive and the bigger clubs try and hoover this lot up.
Quality over quantity won't necessarily work either, we tried that in 96-97, and although it was great to watch when three players had the ball, it was frightening when others had it, or even worse when the oppo had it. That did set us up well for the next few seasons though, but we were a lot richer compared to other clubs, back then. Those days are long gone. A few big names building on this squad could work though, but I think we would need about five players to have a 70% chance of staying up, and even then it going to be quite a weak bench, for the prem.
Fair call on Gibson, but it all depends on when he's thinking of calling it a day. To be honest, I think he'll write it off, he's a good man.
Agree on 16-20. Not spending enough with AK when we went up was bad, or not letting AK go and bring in someone who knew the league and players. But spending loads with Monk was worse, albeit fair play to Gibbo for releasing the cash. That was the last gamble we made, and it took us ~4.5 years to recover the team from it, but the books have took a kicking in the meantime due to Covid (but everyone's in that boat).
I'd maybe try and go up, and not spend a lot, and see how we go in the first year. I think Wilder with this team would have a better chance than AK did, with his squad if we got in maybe 2-3 good players, but not bank breakers. I'd give us a 40% chance of staying up, maybe. But keep Wilder on no matter what and then if we did come down we should be in a good position then, to kick on, and have a real go.
indeedido
Well-known member
I think it would be suicide to not spend a lot - almost certain relegation, in part because our squad is nowhere near good enough to stay up as is.
I think buying young Championship/foreign quality for good money is the way to go and makes best business sense.
As I originally said and Mart followed up, a half decent season for a couple of signings, with one or two of he existing young uns doing pretty well and we have assets to sell for profit if relegation does come.
Focusing on just getting by/waiting to see is absolutely not the way to go IMHO. Let's agree to disagree.
indeedido
Well-known member
McNair did cost c£5m on a 4 year contract, of which 3 years have now gone. His book value will be c£1.25m on July 1st 2022.
Actually he signed an extended contract and that book value could be written off over the length of the new contract, so annual amortisation charge for Paddy will be very low.
Sell Paddy for £10m and the P&L would get a £8.75m boost in the year the deal was agreed.
Sell Spence for £20m in the summer and the books for year to June 2023 will get a £20m boost to P&L as he will have zero book value.
Selling Payero for £4.5m (if he cost £6m on a 4 year deal) would generate no profit on player sale.
DCI_Gene_Hunt
Well-known member
Clearly a small handful of people on here understand the financial information but most of us haven't got a clue what the vast array of numbers mean.
I just take out of it we're £30m down this year on these figures but how does that leave us with FFP as it is a 3 year rolling figure as well isn't it?
If we lost £40m last year and £50m the year before (I don't know the actual losses!) then over 3 years we would have lost £120m or an average of £40m and that would have us (Technically) in breach of FFP as clubs are allowed a £39m loss I believe????????
I just take out of it we're £30m down this year on these figures but how does that leave us with FFP as it is a 3 year rolling figure as well isn't it?
If we lost £40m last year and £50m the year before (I don't know the actual losses!) then over 3 years we would have lost £120m or an average of £40m and that would have us (Technically) in breach of FFP as clubs are allowed a £39m loss I believe????????
Andy_W
Well-known member
I don't get half of it, and I've been looking at this crap often for our clients/ suppliers, and sign off two sets of company accounts every year
The P&L page is the most important, to me, hard to tell with the rest as the situation in the background don't often reflect what is shown in the foreground.
I suppose it's a good way to look at how turnover changed from the prem season and after, and how our wages have come down. The retained profit line gives a fair summary of that financial year, but this can also not tell the full story.
Maccarone
Well-known member
Let the people who know how FFP works fake care of it, Gibson, Bauser etc.,
Numbers seem scary but Gibson will have it completely bolted down but what a debt we owe him, boy without him we would be well Nx truly sunk without trace.
He's a very rich man but without MFC would be very much richer but you can't take it with you so he's providing a legacy Teesside will never forget.
One Steve Gibson
Numbers seem scary but Gibson will have it completely bolted down but what a debt we owe him, boy without him we would be well Nx truly sunk without trace.
He's a very rich man but without MFC would be very much richer but you can't take it with you so he's providing a legacy Teesside will never forget.
One Steve Gibson
indeedido
Well-known member
Gene - if you read my posts above I explain the FFP dimensions.
The chart above is a summary, but Pre Tax Profit is merely the starting point for FFP. You are right it is a rolling 3 year sum.
Bottom lines:
1. The club loses a fortune every year outside the PL, Gibson covers this with increased Group Undertakings (loans from Gibson O'Neill). Every now and then he converts some of that debt into new shares. The club only carries on because GO'N promise not to pull the loans within 12 months.
2. The Club is squeaky clean from a FFP perspective, as Academy/U21, Community spend are allowable. Covid allowances have been made of £5m for both 2020 and 2021 and £2.5m for 2022. Depreciation is also allowable which is over £9m in any 3 year period for Boro. The club also have revalued Fixed Assets (Training facilities) twice in the last few years by c£12m which is also FFP allowable (if at fair market value)
Turnover will step change up from year to 2021. Amortisation will dramatically fall as the accounting for Assombolonga, Fletcher, Gestede etc is over. The club will lose less money in year to 2022 and will still be fine from an FFP perspective. It will also have a squad worth a lot of money to sell if desperate which we are not.
indeedido
Well-known member
The Balance Sheet is very informative, but not definitive.I don't get half of it, and I've been looking at this crap often for our clients/ suppliers, and sign off two sets of company accounts every year
The P&L page is the most important, to me, hard to tell with the rest as the situation in the background don't often reflect what is shown in the foreground.
I suppose it's a good way to look at how turnover changed from the prem season and after, and how our wages have come down. The retained profit line gives a fair summary of that financial year, but this can also not tell the full story.
The Bank Loans and Overdrafts line is completely wrong when compared to the Published Accounts, given it is shown as the same number as Total LT Liabilities (which is correctly stated)
A very handy display of lots of the key measures. I understand a lot of it, but the Tax dimensions are always the haziest to me.
A lot of the ratios etc are far less relevant because the Club is such a freak business, kept on life support by a benefactor within his Group of Companies.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Yeah, half the time loads of those boxes are incomplete or missing, so I wouldn't trust any of them for anything other than a very approximate insight.
I wonder how these boxes get populated, as you would think now that the accounts would have to be listed the same way that they're digitally recorded. Assuming they are digitally recorded and not some weird OCR from paper fillings, although I bet some of the boxes are not standard, which causes the confusion.
This is one of the fullest sets I've seen mind (as in for box population on credit searches), but as you well know, you can't rely on any of these figures, probably other than turnover, but even that can be manipulated with multiple companies and accounts. It's impossible to get the full/ real story from accounts.
I don't even bother looking at any ratios, I probably should for my own companies mind!
Some great points, thanks Indeedio. The revaluation of the training facilities can be negotiated with the external auditors, as long as it is reasonable and as you say at a fair market value. As the club has gone down the revaluation route, which is a perfectly acceptable practice it will have to have the training facilities valued by an independent party at some point to ensure the value we have on the balance sheet is an accurate valuation. I think this is around every 5 years.
Rh
The P&L is key for the monthly and annual running of the club, however the balance sheet is vital. It is the balance sheet which is audited on an annual basis by the external auditors.I don't get half of it, and I've been looking at this crap often for our clients/ suppliers, and sign off two sets of company accounts every year
The P&L page is the most important, to me, hard to tell with the rest as the situation in the background don't often reflect what is shown in the foreground.
I suppose it's a good way to look at how turnover changed from the prem season and after, and how our wages have come down. The retained profit line gives a fair summary of that financial year, but this can also not tell the full story.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
The wage bill is central for me.
Based on nearly £27m in 20/21 - it needed to come down.
Gone in the Summer (approx estimates)
Assombalonga - £2.5m
Fletcher - £1.5m
Saville - £1m
Akpom - £0.75m
Johnson - £0.5m
Wing - £0.3m
Bettinelli - £0.75m
Kebano - 0.5m
Mendez- Laing £0.75m
Coulson 0.3m
Bolasie £0.5m
Archer £0.3m
Morsy £0.5m
Spence £0.75
Total £10.9m
Coming in
Balogen £0.4m
Connolly £0.75m
Daniels £0.4m
Lumley £0.5m
Jones £0.4m
Samba £0.75m
Peltier £0.75m
Crooks £0.6m
Payero £0.5m
Siliki £0.5m
McCree £0.75m
Boyd-Dunce £0.3m
Ameobi £0.5m
Taylor £0.5m
Total £6.85m
Reduction = £4.05m
Plus Browne and Stefanovic went in Jan - another £0.8m saving.
Based on nearly £27m in 20/21 - it needed to come down.
Gone in the Summer (approx estimates)
Assombalonga - £2.5m
Fletcher - £1.5m
Saville - £1m
Akpom - £0.75m
Johnson - £0.5m
Wing - £0.3m
Bettinelli - £0.75m
Kebano - 0.5m
Mendez- Laing £0.75m
Coulson 0.3m
Bolasie £0.5m
Archer £0.3m
Morsy £0.5m
Spence £0.75
Total £10.9m
Coming in
Balogen £0.4m
Connolly £0.75m
Daniels £0.4m
Lumley £0.5m
Jones £0.4m
Samba £0.75m
Peltier £0.75m
Crooks £0.6m
Payero £0.5m
Siliki £0.5m
McCree £0.75m
Boyd-Dunce £0.3m
Ameobi £0.5m
Taylor £0.5m
Total £6.85m
Reduction = £4.05m
Plus Browne and Stefanovic went in Jan - another £0.8m saving.
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r00fie1
Well-known member
Utterly bonkers isnt it.
It appears that promotion to the Premier League is having the facility to pay off outstanding debts and hope for the best.
Mmmm.
indeedido
Well-known member
They really are all just speculative figures.
I think your estimates for the incomings are very low. You also miss Sporar?
Hernandez and Ikpeazu were also half year wages too.
The drop in amortisation is more substantial I believe for year to 2022.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Indeedido
Agree, I forgot Sporar - add £0.6m?
Ref Ikpeazu and Hernandez - they were swapped effectively for some of the Jan incomers for whom we did not pay any wages in 2021 but which I put an annual salary.
I agree they are speculative, but I base them on having a wage bill of nearly £27m in 20/21 which is not speculative and heresay on here and in the media. Say Britt on £50k/week was often mentioned and comments by ex Boro managers about the very high level of wages of some Boro players.
Agree, I forgot Sporar - add £0.6m?
Ref Ikpeazu and Hernandez - they were swapped effectively for some of the Jan incomers for whom we did not pay any wages in 2021 but which I put an annual salary.
I agree they are speculative, but I base them on having a wage bill of nearly £27m in 20/21 which is not speculative and heresay on here and in the media. Say Britt on £50k/week was often mentioned and comments by ex Boro managers about the very high level of wages of some Boro players.
indeedido
Well-known member
I think at least double
Fair do's
I still think the wages estimates are low and am more encouraged by amortisation fall off.
Either way mate, I think we agree things are in much better order and we have reasons to be optimistic after the reset post pulis.