Another one. What are you so angry for? You've got the centre right Labour leader you want? Just enjoy it.
YouGov Poll - 33 Point lead!
- Thread starter Chris_Boro
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Another one. What are you so angry for? You've got the centre right Labour leader you want? Just enjoy it.
BoroFur
Well-known member
Another one? Another what?
Im not angry but it appears that you are suppressing a great deal of anger.
'Centre right Labour leader'? Now I know you're just being pathetic and juvenile.
Well, I am certainly enjoying sitting back and watching the Tories self implode. They seemingly don’t need any help at all from Starmer, or anyone else. The Tory factionalism is finally on public display at last. It just feels like it’s just gone too far for the famed ability of resurrection to work. Even a lot of their own voters want rid of this lot.
Ex Footy Legs
Well-known member
Sign me up too.
Starmer, I’m sincerely hoping is playing it safe until he wins convincingly and he’ll then incorporate what this country needs which is a proper trade deal with the EU if we want growth and lower inflation and if we have to sacrifice everything (eu laws regulation) except free movement then bring it on
(Incidentally, on free movement, I think it’s clearly a good thing for this country when looking at staffing the critical NHS but can the red wall seats understand this basic conundrum - or will the thickos scream traitor to Starmer which is his worst fear)
festa5
Well-known member
Aye. I think it's got to be reintegration with the EU by stealth effectively. Shouldn't have to be, nothing in the referendum said brexit meant no close ties with the EU. Of course some brexiters even advocated remaining in the single market or "norway type deals".
I do think most people would support that approach now too. It's ridiculous we're in a position as a country where we can't have these open and honest debates about it but the right wing media would be like sharks smelling blood if Starmer came out and said labour would start moving us back closer to the EU. Even just for trade.
It's a risk labour feel they can't take and currently it's not one they need to take. The Tories are looking for any lifeline, don't throw them one. You can't change anything unless you're in power. That's the first step.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
To be honest I don't this Festa has said 'take the UK into Europe' at all. You imply that Festa is saying rejoin - from his comments he is clearly stating 'close ties' and giving the examples of the single market.
I get that emotions run high but let's not put words into each others mouths. That's what causes all these slanging matches.
festa5
Well-known member
Thanks, yep.
To be honest I'm determined not to fall into the trap of engaging with exiled. He's either genuinely a bit dim or he's on a wind-up and being disingenuous. Small chance he's a fairly advanced Tory shill.
Either way not worth anyone's time trying to debate with someone who seemingly deliberately misinterprets others comments and puts his own ridiculous spin on things.
Best left ignored.
FabioPorkpie
Well-known member
What a truly unpleasant bunch who want to live in a fantasy echo chamber
There used to be some good posters on here but no wonder now only the same 5 or 10 people contribute as it’s just these people being abusive again and again
Obviously they get a kick out of it
It really can’t be that rubbish or abusive here. I mean some people return year after year after year after year after year with different usernames, but the same transparency.
A good idea possibly would be to step back from the ‘Presidential’ style of “Starmerising” the Labour Party.
There is some very effective people in the opposition front bench team, especially the women, who are setting policy ideas, and carrying most of the load.
They’re ripping new ones every time they confront their opposite numbers in debate in the house, and TV interviews.
There is some very effective people in the opposition front bench team, especially the women, who are setting policy ideas, and carrying most of the load.
They’re ripping new ones every time they confront their opposite numbers in debate in the house, and TV interviews.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Really don't get a lot of the Starmer (Labour) hate, especially not now anyway, it doesn't seem particlarly logical.
I could half understand it a couple of years ago, as they could have thought (or pretended) the recovery against the Tories was short-lived, but he's proven time and time again to poll well, and we will probably end up with the biggest seat swing that we've ever had, especially in recent times. He's took Labour from being 20% behind, to being about 25% ahead, and it's been a pretty steady swing if you think about it logically.
The only time the Tories have been ahead in the last two years was due to the vaccine rollout, which was fair enough, as most probably couldn't see beyond that (but like I mentioned at that time, this was a fake pump in the polls). Like I also said, Labours best tactic would be to just let the Tories hang themselves, over and over again, and don't make themselves an easy target, which they've done.
I could half understand it a couple of years ago, as they could have thought (or pretended) the recovery against the Tories was short-lived, but he's proven time and time again to poll well, and we will probably end up with the biggest seat swing that we've ever had, especially in recent times. He's took Labour from being 20% behind, to being about 25% ahead, and it's been a pretty steady swing if you think about it logically.
The only time the Tories have been ahead in the last two years was due to the vaccine rollout, which was fair enough, as most probably couldn't see beyond that (but like I mentioned at that time, this was a fake pump in the polls). Like I also said, Labours best tactic would be to just let the Tories hang themselves, over and over again, and don't make themselves an easy target, which they've done.
Deary me. Again. Same disingenuous allegation how many times now? Lets deal in facts and honesty, and go step by step.
1) Does anybody deny that Starmer has changed the party in a number of ways since becoming leader?
2) Does anybody deny that part of those changes has been to move policy to the right? Even if you think its still left wing or centre left or whatever you'd call it. Nobody thinks the party's policies are more left wing now than they were under the previous leadership do they?
3) Isn't it therefore logical that some people would exist to the party's left now? Isn't it valid that socialists might have criticisms of the current party?
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Unfortunately for the Labour left (and for that matter the Tory right) voters like boring, sensible, moderate people in charge. They don’t expect them to be saints or so rigidly stuck to policy that they can’t adapt and change but they need to feel relatively safe and not exposed to extremist policies or actions.
One of the problems Sunak has in my view is that although he tries to present a solid ‘the markets like and trust me’ image the reality is that he has been at the heart of an extremist government which has led the country into chaos - a reckless management of Brexit, extreme lockdown, extreme and badly thought out furlough, gimmicky eat out to help out, illegal immigrant crime gangs entering in their thousands by dinghy on the south coast, large increases in poverty and food bank usage, NHS treated like it’s an inconvenience, tax cuts followed quickly by tax increases, runs on pension funds, triple lock under threat, massive spending followed quickly by massive cuts, lurching around on policy etc etc.
The country is crying out for normal and sensible, it seems that a lot of voters think Starmer meets the requirements.
One of the problems Sunak has in my view is that although he tries to present a solid ‘the markets like and trust me’ image the reality is that he has been at the heart of an extremist government which has led the country into chaos - a reckless management of Brexit, extreme lockdown, extreme and badly thought out furlough, gimmicky eat out to help out, illegal immigrant crime gangs entering in their thousands by dinghy on the south coast, large increases in poverty and food bank usage, NHS treated like it’s an inconvenience, tax cuts followed quickly by tax increases, runs on pension funds, triple lock under threat, massive spending followed quickly by massive cuts, lurching around on policy etc etc.
The country is crying out for normal and sensible, it seems that a lot of voters think Starmer meets the requirements.
It would be lovely if this was possible. Sadly it's not. Every government we've ever had has been more right wing in office than they were when campaigning and every government we've ever had has moved to the right over their time in office. That's the reality. So you won't get better, better, better, better... what we'll get is a more right wing Starmer than we see now from the start of his time in office. And then a more right wing version of Starmer every year after that. And then more right wing leaders until Labour are ready to hand back over to the tories.
Muttley
Well-known member
1. All party leaders change their party. Thats rather the point
2. See answer to 1
3. Understandable but pointless. Is calling supporters of the current strategy of the LP "Keir Cultists" a criticism or juvenile name calling?
BoroMart
Well-known member
You complain about negatives towards tories, yet double down on you Kier cultists comment and negative comments on people with an opposing view. It's hypocrisy
Andy_W
Well-known member
The dislike or problems with KS/ current Labour seem to stem from a few areas:
1. They call KS centre right or the same as the Tories - This is clearly not the case (or not what current support seems to think), the Tories have been drifting further right but to me Labour seem pretty much centre left, as much as they can be for the current times.
2. They mention he's been up against a weak government, which is 100% correct, there have been plenty of open goals, and he's scored them. Not sure what else he's meant to do? Corbyn had plenty of open goals too, up against weak government, but didn't really convert anything.
3. They whinge about abandoning policies (or pledges), but don't recognise that the last policies lost, or that the world has changed significantly since the pledges. It would be completely ludicrous to carry on with the same policies or pledges, and ignore current reality, and the Tory press would have a field day against this.
4. There doesn't seem to be any recognition that to win an election you have to actually appeal (or not put off) a massive chunk of uk voters. There is largely no swaying of the voters (other than how they naturally change over time, or with the times), you either appeal to them or you dont, so you either win or lose.
5. There doesn't seem to be any recognition that if you lose, you get to implement no policies, and have next to no influence on the other party either. There is no prise for second place. Corbyn got to implement zero policies and had zero influence on the Tories as he was so far behind for the vast majority of the time.
6. Tactical awareness seems poor, putting your neck on the block, or being an easy target will open you up to simple attack from the Tory press. As we know, this is pretty much all of the press, and this is not going to change, its crap, but that's the game we're playing.
7. There doesn't seem to be any recognition that the manifesto for the next election does not need to be put into place yet, and I'll bet anything that the manifesto is not the same as the tory one.
8. There doesn't seem to be much recognition that the UK voted for self inflicted pain with brexit, and the brexit vote was lost under the previous leader. I wouldn't say it was Corbyns fault, but did not think he did anywhere near enough to help, and he should have known Brexit was going to be a nightmare for the worst off. Fixing that mess is not going to be easy, for anyone, not without losing vote share anyway.
9. There doesn't seem to be much recognition that there's been a pandemic, war, energy crisis, increase in debt and now also another recession etc, or at least not what this actually will take to recover from. None of these are over yet either. This is not going to be a simple time to take over, and is not going to be possible to try and fix everything immediately, it's going to probably take a decade. Winning one election, and then trying to do too much will probably end up in losing the following election, which really won't help those who need the help most.
10. They seem to forget that probably most people on here defending KS, pobably voted for Corbyn too.
11. People who voted for JC don't have to vote Labour, and they don't own the Labour party. KS was elected leader and seems to have good backing from the rest of Labour's MP's.
12. The voter demographic is changing, the population is getting older, and we know older people are more likely to vote Tory. This will swing voters right gradually, over time, just like how the brexit lies stirred up hate and reinvigorated the far right in a short timescale. This is not going to be easy to counter.
13 - Things aren't going to be pretty, for the next 2-5 years, no matter who is in charge, but realistically we can't not expect that after what has happened over the last 6 years.
14 - The tories are going to have to move left, to get some voters back, this should enable labour to move slightly left, and still maintain a good lead in the polls. They will have to move away from the far right, or they won't stand a chance.
1. They call KS centre right or the same as the Tories - This is clearly not the case (or not what current support seems to think), the Tories have been drifting further right but to me Labour seem pretty much centre left, as much as they can be for the current times.
2. They mention he's been up against a weak government, which is 100% correct, there have been plenty of open goals, and he's scored them. Not sure what else he's meant to do? Corbyn had plenty of open goals too, up against weak government, but didn't really convert anything.
3. They whinge about abandoning policies (or pledges), but don't recognise that the last policies lost, or that the world has changed significantly since the pledges. It would be completely ludicrous to carry on with the same policies or pledges, and ignore current reality, and the Tory press would have a field day against this.
4. There doesn't seem to be any recognition that to win an election you have to actually appeal (or not put off) a massive chunk of uk voters. There is largely no swaying of the voters (other than how they naturally change over time, or with the times), you either appeal to them or you dont, so you either win or lose.
5. There doesn't seem to be any recognition that if you lose, you get to implement no policies, and have next to no influence on the other party either. There is no prise for second place. Corbyn got to implement zero policies and had zero influence on the Tories as he was so far behind for the vast majority of the time.
6. Tactical awareness seems poor, putting your neck on the block, or being an easy target will open you up to simple attack from the Tory press. As we know, this is pretty much all of the press, and this is not going to change, its crap, but that's the game we're playing.
7. There doesn't seem to be any recognition that the manifesto for the next election does not need to be put into place yet, and I'll bet anything that the manifesto is not the same as the tory one.
8. There doesn't seem to be much recognition that the UK voted for self inflicted pain with brexit, and the brexit vote was lost under the previous leader. I wouldn't say it was Corbyns fault, but did not think he did anywhere near enough to help, and he should have known Brexit was going to be a nightmare for the worst off. Fixing that mess is not going to be easy, for anyone, not without losing vote share anyway.
9. There doesn't seem to be much recognition that there's been a pandemic, war, energy crisis, increase in debt and now also another recession etc, or at least not what this actually will take to recover from. None of these are over yet either. This is not going to be a simple time to take over, and is not going to be possible to try and fix everything immediately, it's going to probably take a decade. Winning one election, and then trying to do too much will probably end up in losing the following election, which really won't help those who need the help most.
10. They seem to forget that probably most people on here defending KS, pobably voted for Corbyn too.
11. People who voted for JC don't have to vote Labour, and they don't own the Labour party. KS was elected leader and seems to have good backing from the rest of Labour's MP's.
12. The voter demographic is changing, the population is getting older, and we know older people are more likely to vote Tory. This will swing voters right gradually, over time, just like how the brexit lies stirred up hate and reinvigorated the far right in a short timescale. This is not going to be easy to counter.
13 - Things aren't going to be pretty, for the next 2-5 years, no matter who is in charge, but realistically we can't not expect that after what has happened over the last 6 years.
14 - The tories are going to have to move left, to get some voters back, this should enable labour to move slightly left, and still maintain a good lead in the polls. They will have to move away from the far right, or they won't stand a chance.
BoroMart
Well-known member
history is less important than the now. The British people sadly need re-educating in the good that socialist policies can bring after 3 or 4 decades of capitalist rhetoric.
The fact is a strong socialist government will not get in right now, we proved that with the Corbyn efforts. What will get in is someone pragmatic and less ideological. Who can then introduce more socialist policies as we can afford them.
We've only had 3 labour governments with a re-election and only Blair/Brown lasted over 5 years. So we've hardly got a litenany of evidence to claim we can't go more left. In fact Blair and Brown did introduce lots of socialist policies throughout their decade in power, not just at the beginning then back to capitalism. I'd take the domestic and economic policies of Blair over what we've had for the last decade today.
I hope you're right and that's what happens. It won't be though.
This is not my memory of their time. After 2001 it was all ASBOs and erosion of civil liberties.
You're not going to cite the bank bailout as a move to the left are you? Surely?
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Ah right. Do as I say, not as I do eh? Exiled can be slandered as a tory but heaven forfend that I use the C word?
