Sunderland vs Coventry

Let's not argue, I agree, we won't be getting 20 million pound strikers through the door, if we get 2 or 3 of the ones touted. Hoppe, Armstrong and Muniz. A strong midfielder, a replacement for tav, a left sided CB we will have done extremely well, Gykores on top of this would be dreamland, but we'd potentially follow Derby a year or 2 later.
 
MVBoro said:
Problem is you can only go with what people want to pay, especially if the player wants away and you need funds for your own buys. As far as we are aware and have been told, only serious offers were from Spurs and Bournemouth. No one else was interested which affects your bargaining power.
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We could of held a bit tighter on Tav. We seemed to sell very early. I think we pushed over and just let them have him for a much lower price than needed. Especially as we ‘didn’t need to sell’
 
Muttley said:
Because it is entirely conjectural. What Hull got for Potter has as much relevance to what we could ask for Spence or Tav as the price for carrots in Waitrose to the price of beer in your local. None.
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It is but I still think we undervalued ourselves players. Spence one I have sympathy with Gibson as spurs were playing hard ball but with Tav we seemed to accept
Bid early in process and as he was showing a great attitude and playing well I would of been inclined to keep him
A bit longer and push for more pennies out of Bournemouth
 
Diego said:
we seemed
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You, like me, have no idea how long this has been going on. There have been rumours of Tav wanting away for weeks. Perhaps that was his agent, perhaps talks were at an early stage? I think it's fair to say that we didn't just agree to sell him for a knock down price two days before our first game of the season entirely out of the blue. Discussions were had, he wanted to go, I suspect that assurances had been given at the beginning of last season when he was also speculated about. If I was to make something up it would be that Tav wanted to go to the PL but in the end the only option was Bmuff when perhaps he hoped for a more established club, so he had to decide to stick or twist and went with the PL option. I don't know.

But one thing about attracting players to come to the club is how you treat them when they want to leave. We can't treat players like we "own" them, we show them a club where they can grow and where, if they do well, we will allow them to move to the next step in their career. A good club to play for.
 
Diego said:
Do you think we will pay close to 20 million?
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No I don’t think we will or should pay anywhere near that, how much do Coventry want for him? I’ve only seen figures bandied about on social media.
your quote about us not needing to sell Tav, what were his thoughts on a move once he knew Bournemouth were interested?
 
Diego said:
Do you think we will pay close to 20 million?
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Nobody else wanted Spence or Tavernier.
£22.5m rising to £32.5m is decent in that reality.
Coventry will want top dollar for Goykeres and rightly so. If a PL club comes in for him they will blow us out of the water.
If not then we have every chance of structuring a deal that Coventry would find very hard to turn down.
Coventry are not similar to Boro. Not at all. He would come here, no doubt about it.
If he scores goals and we go up then the add ons are a no brainer in terms of value.
This club needs to go up soon.
 
Muttley said:
You, like me, have no idea how long this has been going on. There have been rumours of Tav wanting away for weeks. Perhaps that was his agent, perhaps talks were at an early stage? I think it's fair to say that we didn't just agree to sell him for a knock down price two days before our first game of the season entirely out of the blue. Discussions were had, he wanted to go, I suspect that assurances had been given at the beginning of last season when he was also speculated about. If I was to make something up it would be that Tav wanted to go to the PL but in the end the only option was Bmuff when perhaps he hoped for a more established club, so he had to decide to stick or twist and went with the PL option. I don't know.

But one thing about attracting players to come to the club is how you treat them when they want to leave. We can't treat players like we "own" them, we show them a club where they can grow and where, if they do well, we will allow them to move to the next step in their career. A good club to play for.
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Yes but as I said he has shown a great attitude in training and in games so was still trying his hardest for us. That helps us out negotiation tactics too. You won’t change my mind, we should have held out for more. We undervalued him and I am comfortable with that opinion.
 
indeedido said:
Nobody else wanted Spence or Tavernier.
£22.5m rising to £32.5m is decent in that reality.
Coventry will want top dollar for Goykeres and rightly so. If a PL club comes in for him they will blow us out of the water.
If not then we have every chance of structuring a deal that Coventry would find very hard to turn down.
Coventry are not similar to Boro. Not at all. He would come here, no doubt about it.
If he scores goals and we go up then the add ons are a no brainer in terms of value.
This club needs to go up soon.
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I have no doubts he would come here but I have huge doubts about us being seriously in for him or we would have heard about it by now surely. I think we have enquired and baulked at the price. That’s my take from Wilders comments on a club in the division quoting 25 million for a striker. I think it’s Coventry with Gyokores
 
Stocko said:
No I don’t think we will or should pay anywhere near that, how much do Coventry want for him? I’ve only seen figures bandied about on social media.
your quote about us not needing to sell Tav, what were his thoughts on a move once he knew Bournemouth were interested?
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I’m not sure but I can guarantee you it’s a lot more more than we sold Spence and Tav for
 
Diego said:
I have no doubts he would come here but I have huge doubts about us being seriously in for him or we would have heard about it by now surely. I think we have enquired and baulked at the price. That’s my take from Wilders comments on a club in the division quoting 25 million for a striker. I think it’s Coventry with Gyokores
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It may be, it may just as well not.
What they want and what they accept can be very different things.
It all depends on their options and their position.
I think a deal could be struck and would rather not assume there can’t.
 
I’m sure Gyokores was our No.1 target but it probably became fairly clear early on that it would be difficult if nigh on impossible to get him due to Coventry’s price. I think we’ve well and truly moved on, due to the links with other strikers. Maybe we will get him next year if we get promoted!
 
indeedido said:
It may be, it may just as well not.
What they want and what they accept can be very different things.
It all depends on their options and their position.
I think a deal could be struck and would rather not assume there can’t.
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So on what basis do you think a deal can be struck?

You have commented previously on FFP and saying we need to be ambitious.

What can we afford that Coventry wouldn’t refuse?
 
I keep changing my mind on Gyokores to be honest. A month or so ago I was saying we definitely shouldn't be spending £15m on one player this summer, but at the time we didn't have the money from the deals for Spence and Tav, and I was all for both Gayle and Armstrong coming in (which isn't likely to happen now).

I'm beginning to worry that Hoppe and Muniz will come in and we won't sign another striker, meaning we won't have a single striker at the club with a decent goalscoring record at this level.

If we sign Hoppe and Gyokores, it would obviously mean we'd have limited funds to spend on other players, but I feel I could accept that at this moment in time. We really need to sign a proven goalscorer this summer.
 
To be fair Britt had the 'stats' to suggest he was a very good buy at champo level. I don't think he would take much scouting.

He did still manage to score 15 twice for us despite being infuriating at times to watch. The only issue with him was his injury he'd had. To be fair he stayed fit for us. Although many forest fans say he simply wasn't the same after the injury (lost explosive pace over a few yards).

I genuinely believe Britt would have been 'better' under Wilder and in that formation. He'd have scored more than Watmore / Connally / Sporar and Balogun with the same minutes. Although his wage simply wasn't manageable.
 
Warwickboro said:
Let's not argue, I agree, we won't be getting 20 million pound strikers through the door, if we get 2 or 3 of the ones touted. Hoppe, Armstrong and Muniz. A strong midfielder, a replacement for tav, a left sided CB we will have done extremely well, Gykores on top of this would be dreamland, but we'd potentially follow Derby a year or 2 later.
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The question is.

Will we get promoted with 4 x 2-3 million players.

or will we get promoted by buying 1 or 2 top quality players for the spence and tav money? O'Hare and Goyk say

Id would say the latter
 
Angus said:
So on what basis do you think a deal can be struck?

You have commented previously on FFP and saying we need to be ambitious.

What can we afford that Coventry wouldn’t refuse?
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I've posted so many times on the subject.

Our wage bill has been reducing and we have shed a lot of players since the last reported figure. Our squad is very small.
Our revenue is increasing.
The base position on FFP is extremely good.
The Club lose actual money in the Championship EVERY season, but FFP has so many allowances/adjustments and Gibson has managed it really well in the last three seasons.
Gibson and MFC absolutely need promotion and the revenue that unlocks. Staying here means he will need to guarantee more in loans by £10m-£25m every season to cover the losses.
We have/had players who have no book value, but big market value and hence huge profit opportunity. (Spence/Tavenier) Fry, Jones, McNair, Dijksteel.
We have a minimum £22.5m "Profit from sale of Player Registrations" in this year's P&L. This is the starting point for FFP, or this season's element of our 3 year figure.

IF we signed Gyokeres for a fee of £15m on a 5 year contract rising to £22.5m with add ons based on his goals scored and our promotion, then the impact would be as follows.
A £3m amortisation cost this season and the following 4. The FFP impact of that is £9m across the 3 year period that the £22.5 profit from Spence/Tavernier also covers.
If Gyokeres does not score the targeted goals and we don't go up we have still committed the £15m, but still have a very good player/asset at a good age with good resale value as per Rhodes was. The FFP impact is £9m out of £22.5m.
If he does score the goals and we do go up then he will cost the full £22.5m, but the FFP hit would still be £9m. The £7.5m promotion based add ons are a further FFP allowable, as with player bonuses on promotion. He will also have been instrumental in increasing club turnover by a minimum of £120m.

If we permanently sign 3 prospects like those currently mentioned (Forss, Hoppe, Larsen) for combined c£15m probably all then with add ons, then the FFP impact is the same.
Of course we need to sign more than one more striker, but there is the scope to do that, easily.

If we are bringing the United youngster in then we need a LCB, another midfielder and another 2 strikers on top of Gyokeres.
Sign Greaves £5m plus add ons, sign Hoppe £3m and sign O'Hare for £8m plus add ons, means a commitment of £30m with future revenue based add ons. That plus £3m commitment on Forss is £34m.
Amortisation £8.5m per season if the 5 signed players are on 4 year deals, or £6.8m per season if on 5 year contracts.
Borrow Hannibal and Muniz to complete the squad.
We only actually pay more if we go up in reality.

The FFP hit would be £6.8m this season, versus £22.5m profit boost.
Or £20m across 3 seasons versus £22.5m profit boost from Spence/Tav sales.

There is scope for Boro to commit one big base fee like Gyokeres, there absolutely is.
Or they can speculate on a number of wannabes.

Even if they did commit £20m on Gyokeres, then the FFP hit would be £12m of the £22.5m Spence and Tav have got us over the 3 year period, that's how much scope those sales have given us. Not bad for a lad who wouldn't be in our team and one pretty good Championship midfielder.

It is all up to Steve Gibson. Does he want to speculate on outsiders to get him out of the debt spiral, or invest in better?
Either is better than just saving and temporarily offsetting the inevitable Championship losses.
 
I know its frustrating at the moment but I would personally not invest £15m in one striker - possibly invest that in 3 strikers that are not quite the finished article or slightly over age say 28 or 29. We also need to use the loan system further. We have 2 loan players at present and could cope with at least 2 more.
 
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