Brexit voters

I
Subbuteo_171 said:
It was challenged, you chose not to answer the question as you knew the answer to it entirely destroyed your statement that Brexit voters are complicit in the death of Ukranians.

Lets be clear, Putin did not decide to invade Ukraine post June 2016, he decided this years before as evidenced by the annexation of Crimea and the war in the eastern provinces sine 2014.

Your statement was deliberately designed to troll certain posters in your continued attempt to prove some kind of moral and intellectual superiority on a football message board (a board where you rarely engage with threads about football).

You continue to berate those who have a different perspective across a range of topics with passive aggressive posts insinuating a lack of intelligence or racist undertones - for instance every time criticism of Hamilton is raised your default response is to “subtly” suggest there’s a specific reason for it.

You were utterly flummoxed when I challenged you. Your disgusting statement was proven to be utterly incorrect, your argument was dismantled and yet you still haven’t had the b***ks to admit you were wrong.

I can only assume you get some kind of perverse kick from coming onto a footballing message board to troll other users about Brexit.

And I repeat - remain in 2016, Lib Dem 2010, Labour ever since.
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I answered all pertinent questions. As I told you on their no one could refute what I said
 
Laughing said:
I didn't have ST on ignore but didn't interact with him. His comment about brexit voters being complicit in the murder of Ukrain women and children was a step too far for me. I have no wish to read what he has to say so I put him on ignore.

We can all argue and disagree, but if you can't be civil, I have no interest in debating anything. If I find them offensive they go on ignore becaue I don;t need that kind of poison in my life.
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Wasn't there a thread shut down (and possibly somebody kicked off) for asking a question about the war?

What is mentioned abouve is truly despicable and demonstrates how some can get away with it and others can't
 
Subbuteo_171 said:
Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014, 2 years before Brexit.

This was planned years in advance, it was not an “off the cuff” chance. He has wanted to connect Ukraine with Russia for years. This utterly, totally, completely destroys your statement that Brexit voters are complicit in the deaths of Ukrainians.

Given we‘ve established the facts that the invasion was conceived and commenced before the Brexit vote, please enlighten us all as to how your argument has not been refuted in totality?

Your post was F***ing abhorrent, and you should be embarrassed and ashamed that you made it in the first place, and doubly so sInce you haven’t admitted you are wrong, continuing to state your point hasn’t been refuted.

You clearly have some issue with being wrong. Just admit you were wrong, hold your hands up and and we can all move on - and you might regain some respect from other users.
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I'm not wrong in this case though. Plan fact it seems pretty obvious that the reason Russia interfered in our brexit vote was to help destabilise the EU. And then pretty obvious from that it helped embolden Putin to invade the whole of Ukraine. Isolating one of the signatories of the Budapest Memorandum from its closest neighbours was always going to be helpful to Russia.
 
Subbuteo_171 said:
You said Brexit voters were complicit in the deaths of Ukrainains. Despite the invasion starting in 2014, with Russian backed rebel insurgents in 2 provinces fighting since then.

I have told you where you are wrong, everyone but you can see it. The path had already been chosen.

I cannot believe you continue to insist you are correct.

I’m not sure what your game is, it’s one I’m not going to participate in any longer.

The fact you made your abhorrent statement in the first place, then despite it being destroyed and your inability to defend it you still claim to be right leads to one of 2 conclusions;

1. You are a troll
2. You suffer from a condition impacting your thought process

On either basis, I’m out.

Where’s that ignore button.
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You haven't "told me where I'm wrong" You've equated the annexation of Crimea with the full scale invasion of Ukraine.

You haven't even attempted to address my points, to whit:

Brexit has isolated the UK and weakened it's international standing
The Brexit vote was interfered with by Russia

These two things are facts. As the UK was duty bound to defend Ukraine from invasion, then weakening and isolating the country would help embolden Russia to invade
 
Subbuteo_171 said:
Given we‘ve established the facts that the invasion was conceived and commenced before the Brexit vote, please enlighten us all as to how your argument has not been refuted in totality?
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Agreed, but they are complicit in protecting russian oligarch blood money, we all know that the EU were introducing anti-money laundering rules. They are also complicit in the undemocratisation of our country, and introducing russian spies into the House of Lords.
 
BoroMart said:
Agreed, but they are complicit in protecting russian oligarch blood money, we all know that the EU were introducing anti-money laundering rules. They are also complicit in the undemocratisation of our country, and introducing russian spies into the House of Lords.
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Do you think Germany is complicit having made a commercial and political decision to become dependent on Russian oil?
 
SmallTown said:
You haven't "told me where I'm wrong" You've equated the annexation of Crimea with the full scale invasion of Ukraine.

You haven't even attempted to address my points, to whit:

Brexit has isolated the UK and weakened it's international standing
The Brexit vote was interfered with by Russia

These two things are facts. As the UK was duty bound to defend Ukraine from invasion, then weakening and isolating the country would help embolden Russia to invade
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Oh dear, stop it.

The Budapest memorandum was agreed. Ukraine was subsequently given the opportunity to join Nato which would have guaranteed a NATO response. The leadership of the Ukraine declined insisting on remaining a neutral entity. It was Russia that breached its obligations of the memorandum by annexing Crimea. An illegal referendum organised by ‘Russian sympathisers‘ claimed 95% of Crimea wanted to be Russian and so Putin simply took it. Ukraines then leader fled following his impeachment and a new Ukraine government formed after the uprising. A new illegal redrawn state of Ukraine therefore existed and the memorandum breached by Russia was no longer considered active by its signatories. The new Ukraine leader still did not initially want to join Nato despite all that went on. Nato left membership on the table though.

Subsequent years allowed for steps to be taken by Ukraine toward amending their constitution allowing a move to join Nato. We are here because of Russian breaches not UK breaches and also due to amendments to the Ukraine constitution since the Budapest memorandum.

I would suggest Russia went into Ukraine recently because it knew Ukraine was moving to have closer ties with Nato by changing its internal policies and set out a formal plan to allow it to eventually join. Russia wanted to stop that before Nato moved ever nearer Its doorstep, and here we are.

Brexit has not isolated the UK at all, It has changed the relationships with the EU it doesn’t have any say in EU policy but it has strengthened relationships in other quarters of the world. It is your perception our international standing has weakened, how can you be sure it has. You are stating opinion not fact. i accept the EU we are weaker, within Europe some countries maybe others openly state they miss us.

Russian interference in the UK and wider political world is accepted and many politicians do seemingly have dirty hands in the UK and beyond it seems
 
coluka said:
Oh dear, stop it.

The Budapest memorandum was agreed. Ukraine was subsequently given the opportunity to join Nato which would have guaranteed a NATO response. The leadership of the Ukraine declined insisting on remaining a neutral entity. It was Russia that breached its obligations of the memorandum by annexing Crimea. An illegal referendum organised by ‘Russian sympathisers‘ claimed 95% of Crimea wanted to be Russian and so Putin simply took it. Ukraines then leader fled following his impeachment and a new Ukraine government formed after the uprising. A new illegal redrawn state of Ukraine therefore existed and the memorandum breached by Russia was no longer considered active by its signatories. The new Ukraine leader still did not initially want to join Nato despite all that went on. Nato left membership on the table though.

Subsequent years allowed for steps to be taken by Ukraine toward amending their constitution allowing a move to join Nato. We are here because of Russian breaches not UK breaches and also due to amendments to the Ukraine constitution since the Budapest memorandum.

I would suggest Russia went into Ukraine recently because it knew Ukraine was moving to have closer ties with Nato by changing its internal policies and set out a formal plan to allow it to eventually join. Russia wanted to stop that before Nato moved ever nearer Its doorstep, and here we are.

Brexit has not isolated the UK at all, It has changed the relationships with the EU it doesn’t have any say in EU policy but it has strengthened relationships in other quarters of the world. It is your perception our international standing has weakened, how can you be sure it has. You are stating opinion not fact. i accept the EU we are weaker, within Europe some countries maybe others openly state they miss us.

Russian interference in the UK and wider political world is accepted and many politicians do seemingly have dirty hands in the UK and beyond it seems
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It's isolated us in many ways: trade, international agreements, hell it's even made our passports less useful. I cant believe you can't see that. Actually, no I can believe it. But that doesn't make it true either. We are becoming a joke country. Being excluded from European talks on Ukraine because either they don't trust us due to the Russian involvement or they don't need us.

I can't wait to see your explanation as to why putting up barriers to trade, Restricting freedom of movement and removing ourselves from international agreements HASN'T isolated us. It doesn't make sense to me.
 
zzzzz said:
Did you really type that?
A vote for isoaltion didn't isolate us?
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I respectfully suggest you look up the meaning of the word isolate. We have a different relationship with the EU, we are not isolated from anyone, we are just not a member of the EU through choice.
 
It depends what you mean by isolation. Did the vote mean we were going to be more isolated from Europe? Yes. Did it mean we were going to be completely isolated? No.

There were lots of reasons why people voted for it; I get that. Both those on the far right and also the far left were very much in favour, so it was obvious that people weren't voting for the same things.

It's like the current government. Some people won't vote for them as they're a bunch of racist crooks, some won't vote for them as they don't think they're racist enough.
 
coluka said:
I respectfully suggest you look up the meaning of the word isolate. We have a different relationship with the EU, we are not isolated from anyone, we are just not a member of the EU through choice.
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cause (a person or place) to be or remain alone or apart from others.
 
SmallTown said:
It's isolated us in many ways: trade, international agreements, hell it's even made our passports less useful. I cant believe you can't see that. Actually, no I can believe it. But that doesn't make it true either. We are becoming a joke country. Being excluded from European talks on Ukraine because either they don't trust us due to the Russian involvement or they don't need us.

I can't wait to see your explanation as to why putting up barriers to trade, Restricting freedom of movement and removing ourselves from international agreements HASN'T isolated us. It doesn't make sense to me.
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I could have sworn our Foreign secretary attended a meeting with EU delegates last week regarding Ukraine, perhaps you missed that. I suggest you look up the meaning of isolate too. There is no point debating with you. You can thank me for putting you right on the Budapest memorandum later.
We are seen as a joke in certain quarters yes, mostly due to the current government that you helped vote in though, you know, the one that categorically guaranteed to ‘GET BREXIT DONE’ The irony of your comments might hit home one day.
 
SmallTown said:
cause (a person or place) to be or remain alone or apart from others.
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We are not apart, we left a club thats all. We have relations with the EU, The EU is not Europe, it is a trading entity. We are joining other trading blocs, we still trade with the EU nations, the world evolves, we are not isolated
 
coluka said:
We are not apart, we left a club thats all. We have relations with the EU, The EU is not Europe, it is a trading entity. We are joining other trading blocs, we still trade with the EU nations, the world evolves, we are not isolated
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We are more isolated from the EU; I don't know why anyone would deny that. It is 100% more difficult to trade with EU countries now.
 
coluka said:
We are not apart, we left a club thats all. We have relations with the EU, The EU is not Europe, it is a trading entity. We are joining other trading blocs, we still trade with the EU nations, the world evolves, we are not isolated
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So we have isolate ourselves from our biggest trading partners and our neighbours but we haven't isolated ourselves!

I think we are going to fundamentally disagree on this one. Unless you can prove how making trade with your biggest partners harder and restricting movement from 27 pf your 28 closest neighbours isn't isolating yourself
 
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