Gareth Southgate's strong message after some supporters booed when England players take the knee [Gazette]

I guess you didn’t read the original manifesto that got taken down a few months ago about wanting to destroy the idea of the nuclear family and everything like that. They had to change it after the backlash.

If I were you, I would do a lot more research into that organisation, it’s foundations, Who is really behind it. If you truly do that and don’t come away with serious questions, then your heart may be in the right place but your mind is way off track and that helps nobody.

it’s okay if you want to be selective in what you post but dig deeper.
I suggest you take a dose of your own medicine:

Read this and understand the distinction:


Disclaimer: We are NEITHER associated or affiliated with @ukblm registered (Sep 2020) with FCA under the name 'Black Liberation Movement UK' nor are will affiliated to BLM USA and or any other political party or group here in the UK or abroad.

 
What has largely happened on this thread is someone tried to explain why people might boo players kneeling and bit by bit they get shouted down.

I completely disagree. HG hasn't been shouted down at all. He's been disagreed with, and people have generally made better arguments than he's been able to express. BoroMart especially has been completely polite and patient in his responses.
 
Speech is important discussion is important, as long as it's approached honestly. That isn't to say all opinions have equal merit and all opinions are acceptable. That's not just in terms of racism by the way, their are boundaries to taste and decency regardless. We all have those red lines. Now the reality is, if you value your own desire to not see players take the knee as more important than the fight for racial equality, your a bit of a d*ck at a minimum. If you have a misunderstanding of the facts influenced by deceiving and disincentivising social media campaigns then you are somewhere between gullible and stupid, and if you just oppose change then your a bigot, and if you don't want people that are different from you to have a fair crack at life then your a racist. Give or take a bit of nuance that sums this up (again).


I would engage with them and ask why it offends them.


I would engage to understand why. The point with booing is that you cannot engage with a primal sounds, it's the opposite of engaged debate. It's debating for toddlers. The fact some black people don't agree with it is neither here nor there, there has never been a movement for change in history with 100% support. It's an irrelevance that some people don't support it.

Well I agree, which is why I wouldn’t boo. I still don’t believe that everyone that boo’s is inherently racist though, nor the collective act , just my opinion.

As I said earlier, the sentiment I’ll always agree with, that would never leave me. I just have major doubts in the way the movement and specifically the BLM organisation operates, and there’s plenty of valid reasons that should be talked about. There’s a lot of black people that also agree with that, and they are not irrelevance, whether they’re the minority or not. People have the right to oppose it, regardless of colour, Assuming they’re opposing it for what I believe are valid reasons and not just racism.

That’s all I really have to say on it. When it comes to the sentiment, I’m on your side, always will be. I’m from a very diverse family, through birth and marriage into the family, so I’m certainly not someone that tolerates racism of any kind, I understand it exists, always will sadly. Nor am I opposed to tackling it. I’m just not sure we are on the right path, as stated in the previous paragraph. in my opinion, finding racism abhorrent doesn’t mean I have to think all those booing are just racist. I don’t think it’s that simple, Even though I’m sure some of them are.

the truth is there’s no right answers. As I’ve said before, Other antiracism campaigns in sport have never met such a backlash. This one clearly has, it’s polarising for various reasons. And I believe it’s because the knee gesture has a lot of connection with a specific organisation that plenty of people have some doubts about. That’s why I think there could’ve been a different way of going about it to put across the same (great) message, but without that connection, And maybe it wouldn’t have been met with such hostility, like other campaigns in the past.
 
I completely disagree. HG hasn't been shouted down at all. He's been disagreed with, and people have generally made better arguments than he's been able to express. BoroMart especially has been completely polite and patient in his responses.
Exactly, shouting down seems to be the go to retort here when someones argument is rightly picked apart.
 
123 -

"Other antiracism campaigns in sport have never met such a backlash." [?] [which ones? What is a "backlash"? Do you mean it didnt upset racists?]
This one clearly has,[?] [Prove it. "this" one states clearly what it is]
it’s polarising for various reasons.[?] [You mean you and your ilk dont agree with the right to challenge racism head on]
And I believe [?] [ based on what?] it’s because the knee gesture has a lot of connection [how much is "a lot"?] with a specific organisation [which "specific" organisation?] - [EDL?]
that plenty of people [who?] have some doubts about.[?]
 
I completely disagree. HG hasn't been shouted down at all. He's been disagreed with, and people have generally made better arguments than he's been able to express. BoroMart especially has been completely polite and patient in his responses.

it’s cool, I don’t feel I’ve been shouted down either.

Everybody has been pretty respectful of each other I think, that’s how it should be.

it’s all opinion on specifics at the end of the day. When it comes to sentiment and wanting the betterment of society in general, I’ll be on the same side as BoroMart and others, of that I’ve no doubt. Doesn’t mean we have to think exactly the same things about how to get there.

And I don’t think anybody directed the racist apologist line at me. And if they did it would be laughable because they have no idea of my background anyway.
 
Well I agree, which is why I wouldn’t boo. I still don’t believe that everyone that boo’s is inherently racist though, nor the collective act , just my opinion.
probably not, some are racist some are going along with their mates, some ignorant and some misguided. They're all missing the important element, which is that racism needs to be stamped out, society should have a zero tolerance approach for racism.
 
Racist apologist was used multiple times.
making hypothetical arguments to defend peoples racist actions is apologising for racists, by intent or by accident. Those who are booing don't deserve to have the benefit of any doubt, they had any number of ways to respond and they chose to undermine, I can't accept excuses for them, because there are none. No disrespect to HG meant, I just don't believe those people deserve to have excuses made for them.
 
I suggest you take a dose of your own medicine:

Read this and understand the distinction:


Disclaimer: We are NEITHER associated or affiliated with @ukblm registered (Sep 2020) with FCA under the name 'Black Liberation Movement UK' nor are will affiliated to BLM USA and or any other political party or group here in the UK or abroad.

Would you care to expand on their 'Join the Revolution' slogan?
 
making hypothetical arguments to defend peoples racist actions is apologising for racists, by intent or by accident. Those who are booing don't deserve to have the benefit of any doubt, they had any number of ways to respond and they chose to undermine, I can't accept excuses for them, because there are none. No disrespect to HG meant, I just don't believe those people deserve to have excuses made for them.
Which is not what I am saying bm. We can all berate and castigate. It doesn't make any real difference. Until you understand why someone holds a racist viewpoint you can't change it.
 
Would you care to expand on their 'Join the Revolution' slogan?
It's about creating change from teh ground up rather than waiting for politicians to claim they'll resolve racism but doing nothing. The context is clear in the entirety of their site and brand message. Now of course people who lack honesty might debate it means something else? Holiday Inn's strapline "Pleasing people the world over" does that mean they're giving out handjobs? Did you expect to grow wings after your energy drink? It's a strapline, don't over think it
 
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I agree to a point but some can change. Whilst it is unacceptable behaviour, pointing a finger and calling them racist doesn't change anything.
Some can, and sometimes people need to be told straight that their behaviour isn't acceptable. Sometimes people need to be challenged directly, and sometimes people need to walked through and educated. There is no one approach. I'll tell you what though, telling people not to do it, that racism is wrong had a bigger impact than doing nothing for the decades before it. For the last 20 years racism has been less acceptable and reduced incidents, but we all know why that has changed, the elephant is obvious....as is it's mother
 
If it was called 'racial equality matters', and everyone stood on one leg for 10 seconds to support racial equality before kickoff, would those who currently feel the need to boo continue to boo? We should try that for the next game. I'll stick a tenner on people (racist people) still booing.
 
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Some can, and sometimes people need to be told straight that their behaviour isn't acceptable. Sometimes people need to be challenged directly, and sometimes people need to walked through and educated. There is no one approach. I'll tell you what though, telling people not to do it, that racism is wrong had a bigger impact than doing nothing for the decades before it. For the last 20 years racism has been less acceptable and reduced incidents, but we all know why that has changed, the elephant is obvious....as is it's mother
I am not so sure much has changed though bm. Id like to think it has, unfortunately it was just having a little break.
 
People are entirely entitled to have an opinion on this or any issue but surely it is just an issue of basic human decency and respect. If you do something you know for an absolute certainty will hugely upset and offend people who have done nothing to deserve it, you're a sorry excuse for a human being.
 
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