WeeGord
Well-known member
Please can you explain in detail why you consider Labour to be anti-working class and anti-British?
Tory`s win Hartlepool by 6940 votes.
- Thread starter r00fie1
- Start date
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Good post and I agree that is a very possible scenario.
The thing which gives me hope though is that last nights Hartlepool result is another demonstration of political instability and volatility so a reverse swing may be achieved more quickly if the young get out and vote.
JM14
Well-known member
Not accepting the Brexit result... which they still haven't
You can jog your memory though - NOV 2019:
A Final Say referendum on EU membership held under a Labour government would be legally-binding and its outcome would be implemented immediately, Jeremy Corbyn has declared.
Second Brexit referendum will be legally-binding, Corbyn says
Labour leader denounces prime minister’s promise to ‘get Brexit done’ as a ‘fraud on the British people’www.independent.co.uk
Look at food bank usage over the last ten years, then tell me the Tory party is for the working class. A slightly more important issue than Brexit no matter how you voted.
Ill wait......
Chris_Boro
Well-known member
You've gone from acknowledge Brexit to being pro Brexit, totally different things. Farage himself could have ran for Labour, it wouldn't have changed the result.
jam69
Well-known member
I asked the same, don't hold your breath for a answer
InglebyUTB
Well-known member
PR and Nationalisation plan would be a good start
r00fie1
Well-known member
This was one of Labour`s election leaflets:
It it anti - British (?)
Why "British"?
If anything it appeals to base level "patriotism": like "Britains First"
or the National Front
or this man
"As Labour keep being anti- working man / lady and anti - British..."?
How?
atomicloonybin aka ALB
Well-known member
If the Tories keep going like they are, there won't be a Britain. If the SNP get in, they'll force a referendum no matter what Johnson wants. Can you imagine a 56-44 win for independence and what that would do - or even a 52-48 (!).
Northern Ireland seems to be being pushed further and further into the arms of Eire. Much more problematic given the history, and not something i would have expected any time soon, but it looks more likely. Wales seems to be seeing the start of it as well.
Which leaves England, and permanent Tory rule.
Apropos of nowt, I feel for Dr Williams who by all accounts (I'm in Stockton North) was a good constituency MP. He was sold a pup over this one, and it's unlikely he'll get another chance.
Chris_Boro
Well-known member
So you wanted a manifesto for council elections and by-election against a populist government?
jam69
Well-known member
Didn't we have a referendum on PR and it was firmly rejected by the electorate?
Colin Warnek
Well-known member
‘Once-in-a-generation’ referenda only apply for a few years now apparently. Just ask Wee Nicola.
Chris_Boro
Well-known member
PR wasn't considered if I remember correctly, it was AV v FPTP.
Alvez_48
Well-known member
We had a vote on AV not PR you know this ya cheeky little scamp.
I guarantee if Starmer hadn't been spending the past 12 months saying we should have locked down sooner and longer whilst supporting the Tory covid powers this result would have gone differently.
Imagine knocking on people's doors with the message we have vehemently opposed these destructive and damaging policies that have not saved lives and robbed so many of you hard working people of your livelihoods....
Oops I forgot you are massive fans of that too.
You reap what you sow...
Andy_W
Well-known member
I don't think this is the nightmare it's being made out to be, and tactically, I think it actually puts labour in a better position for the next GE, basically, it's giving the tories more rope to hang themselves, in a weird way. It's a short term loss for a long term gain.
In reality, the Hartlepool seat was lost years ago (like many others), mainly due to Brexit and "get Brexit done et", it just wasn't realised in the numbers with the split Brexit/ far-right vote. Everyone that left before, has no reason to come back, as the reasons they left were for right-wing/ Brexit reasons and we're yet to see the main problems of this pan out yet.
The way I see it is Labour would be wrong to be seen as being "opposition" to the government now, when we're fighting a pandemic (even though the tories have done a superbly $hit job), loads of the easily susceptible new tories would not likely "come back" due to this kind of opposition, not now anyway. Don't forget "this lot" are all about "get behind and support brexit, its failings are because remainers are negative", they're a weird bunch, they think believing in something is more important that than the reality of it.
We've also pretty much nearly completed being the first major nation in the world, to have an unreal vaccination program. Labour could have anyone in charge and any tactics, and they would not stand a chance against this, it's a certain loss, and cannot be any other way, they would be better of saying "fair play Tories" or direct the positive on the NHS, despite how much it's been hammered etc. It won't get them any votes and may lose some of the far left, but it won't pi$$ off the Brexit/ middle/ right lot any more, and they literally cannot win without some of their votes (unfortunately). Losing the far left is irrelevant, for now.
So the way I see it is, let the vaccine and pandemic dust settle (little can be done anyway, by opposition), and watch how the cost of this and the cost of Brexit start to bite, then in the 1-2 year run up to the GE, start to go after the Tories hard. At the minute "brexiteers" are still enjoying their "win", they won't come down from this jizz fest for a year or so yet.
Basically, the way I see it is, if you take the "get brexit done" false positive, actual vaccine positive away (which will be short-lived and soon forgotten, especially as the EU is catching up fast), and lockdowns ending positive away, and remember there is no far-right competition for the tories then we're basically still in the same position as before. The thing is labour have not really tried to hit the tories and I think it's intentional, let them have their peak, and then go after them when the timing is right, and there is going to be a $hit load of ammo to come:
Covid austerity
Brexit austerity
Scottish independence, either they leave and we get weaker or they stay and labour can maybe win back some votes or work with them
Ireland problems
GDP growth deficit compared to the EU
150k covid deaths which is never going to look good
We will have the same % vaccinated as anywhere in the EU, come winter (so the vaccine is no longer a "win" for the tories, as it's no longer better then the EU)
Inquest into the handling of covid
Comparisons between the handling of covid in different countries once it's played out
Furlough ending/ jobs lost
Summer end of lockdown buzz finishes and winter of discontent starts
There's a lot of big problems coming there, and the tories will not look after the most worse off (a lot of whom, voted brexit), and no way can the tories maintain what they have now, through all that, then all labour need is some momentum and the get the other left parties tactically voting.
Even if labour gained some now, it would probably not make much difference anyway, it's a waste of a gain, if you're going to be in power during some exceptionally rough times (so could lose again).
Effectively it was going to be ****, our own idiot people seen to that, so just let it be **** under the tories and then you can point blame at them easier later.
In reality, the Hartlepool seat was lost years ago (like many others), mainly due to Brexit and "get Brexit done et", it just wasn't realised in the numbers with the split Brexit/ far-right vote. Everyone that left before, has no reason to come back, as the reasons they left were for right-wing/ Brexit reasons and we're yet to see the main problems of this pan out yet.
The way I see it is Labour would be wrong to be seen as being "opposition" to the government now, when we're fighting a pandemic (even though the tories have done a superbly $hit job), loads of the easily susceptible new tories would not likely "come back" due to this kind of opposition, not now anyway. Don't forget "this lot" are all about "get behind and support brexit, its failings are because remainers are negative", they're a weird bunch, they think believing in something is more important that than the reality of it.
We've also pretty much nearly completed being the first major nation in the world, to have an unreal vaccination program. Labour could have anyone in charge and any tactics, and they would not stand a chance against this, it's a certain loss, and cannot be any other way, they would be better of saying "fair play Tories" or direct the positive on the NHS, despite how much it's been hammered etc. It won't get them any votes and may lose some of the far left, but it won't pi$$ off the Brexit/ middle/ right lot any more, and they literally cannot win without some of their votes (unfortunately). Losing the far left is irrelevant, for now.
So the way I see it is, let the vaccine and pandemic dust settle (little can be done anyway, by opposition), and watch how the cost of this and the cost of Brexit start to bite, then in the 1-2 year run up to the GE, start to go after the Tories hard. At the minute "brexiteers" are still enjoying their "win", they won't come down from this jizz fest for a year or so yet.
Basically, the way I see it is, if you take the "get brexit done" false positive, actual vaccine positive away (which will be short-lived and soon forgotten, especially as the EU is catching up fast), and lockdowns ending positive away, and remember there is no far-right competition for the tories then we're basically still in the same position as before. The thing is labour have not really tried to hit the tories and I think it's intentional, let them have their peak, and then go after them when the timing is right, and there is going to be a $hit load of ammo to come:
Covid austerity
Brexit austerity
Scottish independence, either they leave and we get weaker or they stay and labour can maybe win back some votes or work with them
Ireland problems
GDP growth deficit compared to the EU
150k covid deaths which is never going to look good
We will have the same % vaccinated as anywhere in the EU, come winter (so the vaccine is no longer a "win" for the tories, as it's no longer better then the EU)
Inquest into the handling of covid
Comparisons between the handling of covid in different countries once it's played out
Furlough ending/ jobs lost
Summer end of lockdown buzz finishes and winter of discontent starts
There's a lot of big problems coming there, and the tories will not look after the most worse off (a lot of whom, voted brexit), and no way can the tories maintain what they have now, through all that, then all labour need is some momentum and the get the other left parties tactically voting.
Even if labour gained some now, it would probably not make much difference anyway, it's a waste of a gain, if you're going to be in power during some exceptionally rough times (so could lose again).
Effectively it was going to be ****, our own idiot people seen to that, so just let it be **** under the tories and then you can point blame at them easier later.
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Colin Warnek
Well-known member
Cheers to that.
Isn't that like saying, when you are already 3 goals before half time, that you wouldn't mind conceding a fourth goal in the hope that your opponents will ease off in the second half?
On the other hand,if it brings about a dose of reality and Keir and co start thinking about what they do want and not what they don't, you might be right.
SmallTown
Well-known member
We had a referendum on electoral reform. It wasn't so much rejected as ignored. I think the turnout was twelve. Not 12%, twelve people!
Andy_W
Well-known member
It could work, it just depends how far right the country has gone. It certainly has a lot more chance than having Corbyn in place now, going after the tories now, extremely weakly, when they're nailing the vaccine and brexit hasn't delivered its rathshit yet (or some of it his hidden by covid). He would just look like even more of a moron to those who left because of him or left because of brexit etc.Cheers to that.
I'd bet anything that Labour do better with Starmer in the next GE, than they would have done under JC, or how JC did in the last two. The UK is going right (hopefully won't go no further), keeping a weak, further left leader, who had already lost two GE's could not lead to a win, it's impossible.
Andy_W
Well-known member
More like if you're getting beat 3-0 at half time in leg one, keep it to 3-0, batten down the rafters and don't even try to score. Just make it manageable to overturn for the home leg, when you know the oppo have some big fixtures in between.
They might ease off though, it would be good, it puts them in a false sense of security, and there's years of $hit coming, but the time to point that out isn't now, it's in winter or after.
At the minute "the brexiteer" couldn't be any happier, Furlough/ free money/ unicorns, brexit done, vaccine, pubs opening etc, it's lots of positives for them at the minute, but this is about as high tide as it's going to get (well, summer is).